Lee Classic Turret Press Turrets

Ed,

I have never owned the Turret or the Classic turret presses. I do own several Pro 1000 and several Load Masters along with many other brands of single and progressive presses. The problem you describe and as seen in the video is common with most brands but is usually more noticeable in the sizing stage. The timing of the turret may or may not be off. I struggled with these things when I first started reloading and trying to find that perfect load. I have encountered some die holders for the Load Master that weren't clocked right. Because of the expense in returning them I just used them to protect the threads of extra die or used them as paper weights.

I wanted to comment on the video as well. I did see some movement of the brass but nothing that would cause concern.
Many years ago I had a tool and die shop make a couple of tools to check press alignment. One screws in where a die goes and the other goes where the shell holder goes. They meet in the middle as 2 points. Very much like scope ring alignment tools. Let me check 100 presses and I will show you 98 of them that are off center and don't line up. I had that tool set made for the same reason you mentioned. I wanted to know why the brass moved or rocked so much when going into or coming out of the dies. I thought that this whole process had to be very precise. Boy was I wrong. All that not being bad enough, now factor in the shell holders. They are a far cry from being a precision holding device. I don't know what the tolerances are in manufacturing these but if you take 2 shell holders that are supposed to be the same and measure them your eyebrows will curl up over your forehead.

Now something else to think about.. Has your rifle action been trued? What about a wheel gun? Is it true. Well yes and no. There is enough play in every wheel gun I've seen to allow the head of the brass to tilt. Slight as it maybe but it will. If a rifle comes off the assembly line true it's purely by chance so the same thing happens here. I guess I should clarify that. If the brass comes out of the cylinder or chamber true it is pure luck. Unless it has been trued. Now your going to set that brass in a not so perfect shell holder and wonder why it tilts one way of the other. Look at the dies. The opening is wide and beveled. Ask why? Answer: because they know we/you are going to reload brass that didn't come out of a perfect chamber..

Reloading using single stage presses and expecting precision reloads without first hand picking the press, reworking the ram, bushing all the pivot points, re-threading for the dies and many other things to true them up is asking for a huge let down. Asking a progressive press to do the same thing would be like expecting an elephant to out run a cheetah.

The RCBS rock chucker press comes the closest of all single stage presses of being true. That's is also why many bullet swagging die makers want you to send in your rock chucker when you order dies. That is unless you are using the corbin or CH presses. They will for a nominal fee true it so that your new swagging dies will function correctly and not break right out of the gate. That is also why I have kind of chuckled when I hear reference to threaded precision dies. They maybe slightly better but they are only as precise as the press they are used in.
I'm sure some are going to disagree with me on what I wrote here and that is fine. It is only presented as my view and opinion so take it for what it is worth.
BTW even all those not so true presses and dies out there still produce better loads than most factory loads.

Dan, what you described is what every self loader has to come to grips with.  No such thing as perfect anything.  And especially that's true for any tool that doesn't cost more than I'll ever make in this lifetime.  You have to learn to work around the weaknesses, (including the warranties). 

What amazes me is how well our loads can do using equipment that costs less than a $1000!  Contrary to reports from Dillon fans, those aren't perfect either.  That's why we stick together and work out the problems. 

One thing that is usually true......the simpler the machine (fewest parts count) the more accurate it can be.  That's most likely why the Rock Chucker is truer than a turret or a progressive (and probably our Summits, Ed)   When I decided to buy a progressive, I started counting the parts of the leading contenders.....and picked the simplest one.  So far I'm glad I did.

OK ...

How does one 'true-up' an RCBS Rock Chucker press?

I can hear the money register already making the ... "ka-ching" sound already!

Plus ... shell holder tolerances??? There is so much slop in those shell holders ... that the Redding "competition" shell holders is just laughable. I cannot even see how one can have a shell holder and NOT have a ton of slop.

One thing I find interesting is the necessity for "slop" in a progressive.  I mean the shell plates and the die plates of presses used on the Dillon 550, and 650, as well as the RCBS Pro 2000, are sloppy indeed!  It reminds me of a Kalashnikov rifle....tolerances loose so that it works every time, except that in the case of the progressive presses, such looseness allows the cases and tools to line up and load pretty accurate ammo, without having to spend thousands of dollars machining tolerances so fine as to always line up. And besides, even with a price tag in the thousands, it still wouldn't work because of the loose tolerances in loading components like cases and bullets.

Considering the above, I am amused at the "races" we see on YouTube showing people loading as fast as they can yank the handle, and as long as it loads with no mechanical stoppages they think they have a winner.  On a progressive such speed makes it hard for the press to self center and make accurate ammo.  Same with that little turret in the video.....a little thought has to go into lining things up.  IMO, loading safe and accurate ammo and high speed just don't go together with home presses.

Ken,
Here are some simple tests to check to see how much slop there is in a Rock Chucker. Without dies or shell holders installed run the ram half way up. Now with a dial indicator positioned so that it is indicating on the side of the ram wiggle the ram. How much did it defect. If it was .003" or more the swagging die makers will tell you that you are going to break a punch if you use that press for swagging. The punches are super hard and brittle and a defection of more than .002" is enough to break it.

Shell holders: I may have mislead you guys when I complained about shell holders. Yes they are sloppy but they are supposed to be. Their main purpose is to extract the case from the die. Many will say that they are also sloppy to allow for self centering and they will if the press is used correctly. What do I mean by correctly? I can see the eyes rolling.... I would guess by the videos I've seen that most reloaders do not use their press correctly. In fact the video link that Ed posted show a press that is not being used correctly. What should happen is when you put the brass in the shell holder and run the ram up, just as you feel resistance of the sizer die you should back off of the pressure to allow the head to center in the shell holder. How many of you don't do this?
Now take a press that has too much slop in the ram and not enough slop in the shell holder and a human motor that doesn't allow for centering and what do you get?

To see if I was wasting my money by having custom cut dies for my bench gun I ordered a set of Lee 30BR dies. I reloaded 50 rounds using those die and a single stage press that had no slop in the ram. Those 50 were accurate by almost anybodies standards. Where they accurate enough to shoot a match with? Only if I don't want to win.

I know it sounds like I have something against single stage, turret and progressive presses but I don't. I use them in the majority of reloading that I do and I reload allot. I do try my best to find ways to eliminate or find ways around as many flaws in the process as I can.

What? The RCBS instruction booklet clearly says to have the press "cam-over" on the full length sizer die.

Believe it or not ... I found that the RCBS instruction booklet did not give me very good results. Yes, the full length sized rounds operated reliably in my bolt guns, but the performance just was not there. What I do now is to follow the "cam-over" instructions, and then add a shim to the die after this. I have found that a 0.005" shim places the sizer die to this "back-off" position you mention in your post.

Now ... I got another thing I did not think about to measure. I will do this too.

Ed,
I can almost guarantee it wasn't clocked correctly. It probably isn't a common occurrence but hey stuff happens.