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Post by erjdriver on Jul 26, 2014 23:19:28 GMT -5
Good evening all, For the folks that were on the "old" RCBS Forum Board, y'all might remember my saying that I had reloaded .357 Magnum/.38 Special in the past on a single-stage press and was getting my "new" RCBS Pro 2000 press set up. It's working GREAT and I have reloaded somewhere around 1,000 rounds of .45 ACP for a buddy of mine that has a true Thompson MG (non-automatic, unfortunately, and not sure which model it is). At any rate, I'm going to start setting up to reload 5.56/.223 brass (mostly Lake City) in a month or so when I finish reloading some .40 S&W and .38 Special. Reloading rifle and "necked" brass will be a totally new venture for me and I know I have TONS to learn. Having said that, I have read plenty of material and watched a lot of You Tube videos to determine that I needed the RCBS AR Series Small Base Die Set w/Taper Crimp to resize the brass so that it will properly feed in an AR platform semi-automatic; bought it from MidwayUSA...link below. I plan to watch more videos on lubing the brass before putting it through the resizing die, but I wanted to learn from the experts here on the Forum Board who have probably reloaded more rifle rounds this year already than I've shot in my entire lifetime. I've watched the video put out by RCBS using their lubing pad (and that's what I bought...a couple of them as a matter of fact), but I was wondering if any of y'all can pass along your "tips and tricks of the trade" about lubing rifle brass. I know I will undoubtedly get a case or two or 50 stuck in the die, but I hope that I can garner enough knowledge from y'all to keep it to a minimum. So here's my plan..... Steps to reload 5.56/.223 brass:
Decap brass on single-stage press using Lee Universal Depriming and Decapping Die Tumble brass (I wet tumble using Thumbler's Tumbler) Resize brass using AR Small-Base Die on single-stage press (this is where my concern about proper lubing technique comes into play) Trim brass to proper length Chamfer mouth of brass Clean neck with wire brush Clean Primer Pocket Remove crimp if necessary (all trimming, case prep, and crimp removal will be done on Hornady Case Prep Center) On Pro 2000 press after the above is complete:Station 2 - Prime cases Station 3 - Powder drop Station 4 - Powder check die Station 5 - Seat and taper crimp Does this sound like a feasible plan and process? Have I left anything out? Do I need to re-lube the brass before proceeding to the Pro 2000 stations? I know opinions will vary, but what is the best case lube on the market? What is the best, easiest, and/or most effective procedure for lubing necked brass with your preferred brand of case lube? Link: AR Series Small-Base Die SetThanks in advance for any information and education y'all can pass along. Much appreciated!!! p.s. And with forethought, I did buy an RCBS Stuck Case Remover kit.....I just KNOW it will happen.  |
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bob
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Post by bob on Jul 27, 2014 0:01:29 GMT -5
Sounds like you have all the bases covered, I would perhaps change the sequence a little. Decap, remove crimp as necessary, clean primer pocket, clean neck, and resize then tumble
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Post by erjdriver on Jul 27, 2014 1:21:24 GMT -5
I appreciate that feedback, Bob. Regardless of the order of the steps, I just want to clarify that necked cases should be resized BEFORE they are trimmed, correct? Also, what would be your recommendation(s), if any, on the best method to properly lube the brass before I run them through the resizing die? Any favorite brand of lube you prefer over any others?
Thanks again and have a great Sunday!
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poohzilla
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Post by poohzilla on Jul 27, 2014 7:16:05 GMT -5
Hi erj-big thing is don't overdo the lube, or you'll dent cases (which most of the time will still be ok) obviously, too little, and you end up with a stuck case. (It's like Kenny Rogers's song, The Gambler-he tells you what you need to know, but doesn't tell you what it is.) As far as the lube, I've used Forster's for years. A very little goes a long way. I tried the water-based RCBS stuff once. (It came as a sample) The bottle still sits on my shelf. There is perhaps another member who loves the stuff. There are many ways to Nirvana. Good luck.
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Post by erjdriver on Jul 27, 2014 8:27:59 GMT -5
Good morning Pooh!
Thanks for the reminder about using too much lube. I watched the RCBS video about how to lube cases. To an amateur such as me, I said to myself, "Dang...that looks like a awful lot of lube that girl is putting on that pad".
I realize there's a fine line between not enough lube and too much lube. Is this theory correct? With these small-base resizing dies (or maybe necked case dies in general), the lube has nowhere to go and creates pressure in the die itself and thus crushes the case if there is too much lube.
Here is the RCBS video where I thought the lady was using too much lube:
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bob
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Post by bob on Jul 27, 2014 8:50:35 GMT -5
erj: First,yes resize then trim. The sizing process can cause the case to "grow" some cartridges grow more often than others and I'm probably the only person in the western world that doesn't have a 5.56/.223 so I don't know how prone it is to growth. As far as lube goes I have used the RCBS product and pad for a long time quite satisfactorly. I recently started started using Imperial sizing wax and dry neck lube and I like them as well. I would start off with the RCBS lube until you've gained some experience with this cartridge. As pooh said use the lube sparingly.
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Post by krwada on Jul 27, 2014 11:00:31 GMT -5
Good morning Pooh! Thanks for the reminder about using too much lube. I watched the RCBS video about how to lube cases. To an amateur such as me, I said to myself, "Dang...that looks like a awful lot of lube that girl is putting on that pad". I realize there's a fine line between not enough lube and too much lube. Is this theory correct? With these small-base resizing dies (or maybe necked case dies in general), the lube has nowhere to go and creates pressure in the die itself and thus crushes the case if there is too much lube. Here is the RCBS video where I thought the lady was using too much lube: She is using too much lube for only 3 cases. I usually put about 9 drops of lube on the RCBS lube pad. I then let it sit for a day or so before using. That pad works best when it has absorbed the lube. I can then lube up about 100 cases this way. I recharge the lube pad AFTER each loading session. In this way, I can be sure the pad has completely soaked all the lube before using it. You do not need much lube. The trick with preventing stuck cases is to feel the tension on the press as you full length size the brass. If you feel it galling ... then you really need to back off immediately! The general rule with all of this stuff is if you feel any undue resistance ... then STOP IMMEDIATELY and figure out where the problem is. Check, fix the problem, then move on. A few things I have found: 1. Always keep the lube AWAY from the shoulder or neck 2. It is best to decap your brass before cleaning. 3. Always FL size before trimming 4. Neck sizing usually does not need any trimming 5. Semi-auto should always be FL sized 6. Bolt guns do benefit with neck sizing... however, every now and then the brass should be "reset" with a FL sizer die 7. I usually do the FL sizer die reset when I anneal the brass 8. Most rifle rounds do not need a crimp ... However, I do need to test this idea. This is why I went out and purchased the Lee Factory Crimp Die, (FCD). 9. I use Hacker, (Gary's) rule of reloading .. "When in doubt, throw it out". It is just not worth a damaged firearm or loss of body parts. 10. If you really clean that brass, then it is essential to lube the neck. I use the Redding neck lube applicator, (those ceramic balls) along with graphite to lube the necks. The problem here is that the brass will gall on your sizer die and eventually cause score marks on the necks after several 100's of rounds of reloading. Then .... you will need to send your dies back to the mfr to get them re-honed. 11. If you do lube the necks, then the preferred order is to lube the necks 1st. Do all of the neck lube as a batch operation, then lube the cases. It is way less messy this way. The other way to lube the necks is to use the Redding Imperial Sizing Wax. I have a little tin of this stuff. This little tin is pretty much a lifetime supply. Imperial Sizing Wax is really really good stuff! I still use the RCBS lube pad. I do this because it is easier to apply lube to 10-15 cases at a time using the pad. |
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bob
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Post by bob on Jul 27, 2014 12:44:59 GMT -5
ejr: One last thing to do FIRST, make sure the vent hole in the side of the sizing die is clear a paper clip works well for this. This is very important! Also as has been repeatedly mentioned lube sparingly, what you get on your fingers is almost enough.
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Post by erjdriver on Jul 27, 2014 12:51:33 GMT -5
Holy crap this sounds like a challenge!!!  Thanks for all the input and suggestions...I just hope to not screw something up with my press and/or sizing die, but I'm sure I wouldn't be the first and certainly not the last. HOPEFULLY with the guidance y'all are providing here, I can avoid the common pitfalls. I have a pretty good bit of 5.56/.223 brass that I've already deprimed and run through the tumbler, so it would appear I will need to pay particular attention to lubing the neck as you've described, krwada. Next question.....The gentleman that owns/operates our shooting club mentioned to NOT clean the brass until I've resized it. Is this to avoid the extra work of having to lube the neck? I think I'm getting a headache.  Thanks for all the advice, y'all!!! |
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Post by hacker54 on Jul 27, 2014 13:31:53 GMT -5
ERJ,
I always clean my brass before I resize them. Reason being that a clean smooth case will not be apt to hangup and stick as a dirty or gritty one will. An uncleaned case has the more chance to scratch the inside of your die.
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Post by erjdriver on Jul 27, 2014 13:52:22 GMT -5
Pretty much what I was thinking, Hacker, and that's why I was puzzled when I was told to NOT clean the brass until I resized by the guy that owns our shooting club. But I just re-read his e-mail and initially misunderstood what he posted. I'm pretty sure he cleans his brass before resizing, but he was telling me that once it's resized and re-tumbled to get the lube off, DO NOT try to resize it THEN.
'Preciate it!!!
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bob
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Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
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Post by bob on Jul 27, 2014 14:55:33 GMT -5
ejr: You will need to clean your brass AFTER sizing to get the lube residue off and out of the cases. If the brass is range brass and/or dirty then you may have to clean it twice which is not a bad thing. I lube the neck inside and out always as it gets squeezed and then expanded also. Prudent care and attention to whether the brass is clean or not will determine if you need to clean it before sizing. I have dies that are older than most humans and have loaded a proverbial ton of cartridges and are still good. You said you have reloaded hand gun cartridges for some time well the same criteria for clean will apply here as to whether you have to clean twice or not but ALWAYS AFTER sizing.
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Post by erjdriver on Jul 27, 2014 18:51:59 GMT -5
OK...thanks Bob. ALL the 5.56/.223 brass I have is once-fired brass whether I personally shot it or bought it online from Everglades. I probably have a couple thousand pieces that I've already decapped with the Lee Universal Decapping Die and run through my Thumbler Tumbler. So I'll be working with deprimed, cleaned brass when I go to lube and resize these pieces. After resizing, I don't mind one bit running them through another wash in the tumbler.....sounds like it's a requirement to clean off the lube. How long would you say it will take to wash off the lube? More than 30-45 minutes with SS media and a good shot of Dawn detergent? One last question about the RCBS Resizing Die..... Even though I will already have decapped brass when I go to resize it, I will still need to have the decapping pin installed in the RCBS Resizing Die so that the case mouth is properly expanded, correct? I'm finding that reloading rifle brass is A LOT more detailed. But should be twice the fun!!!  ETA:So to update the steps I detailed above..... . . Resize brass using AR Small-Base Die on single-stage press (this is where my concern about proper lubing technique comes into play) Re-tumble brass to remove lube residueTrim brass to proper length . . . |
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bob
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Post by bob on Jul 27, 2014 20:19:45 GMT -5
ejr; Actually I find bottle neck cartridges easier and less complicated, that is 'till you start trying to get the most out of a cartridge. I would suggest cleaning after trimming to remove all the shavings. As far as time goes I haven't a clue I use a vibrator with dry media. You may remove the decapping pin just reinstall the expander ball without the pin. Also purchased brass is probably clean enough to process as is.
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Post by erjdriver on Jul 27, 2014 23:09:12 GMT -5
Thanks everybody for your input and advice. This is a great group of folks and I appreciate everyone taking the time to help a novice out!!  |
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gws
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Post by gws on Jul 27, 2014 23:20:04 GMT -5
Sounds like you have all the bases covered, I would perhaps change the sequence a little. Decap, remove crimp as necessary, clean primer pocket, clean neck, and resize then tumble Bob, using the wet Thumlers Tumbler method (I assume using stainless steel media?  ) his primer pockets and case neck will be sparkling new, so cleaning them before tumbling would be moot. But, I agree that removing primer pocket crimp (if indeed it is crimped) before tumbling makes the most sense, if he plans to punch the old primers out with a universal. The other option would be to skip the universal, tumble the brass first, then size (including the depriming). Now you have pretty (but lubed) brass with dirty, crimped primer pockets. So then on your Hornady case prep machine, you can 1. trim, 2. ream away the crimp, 3. uniform the pocket depth (now you have equally sparkling new pocket), 4. chamfer, 5. deburr, and 6. deburr flash holes too if you want.At this point it's ready for the progressive's priming, charging, and seat/crimp procedures. The AR Dies taper crimp is good one as long don't deform your bullets. The slightest squeeze is all you need. Now you have finished ammo with lube residue....wipe each one while you're checking it out for high primer, or other problems. High primers BAD in an AR. Down the road buy a vibrating tumbler if you want to remove lube fast from loaded rounds......all it takes is 15 minutes. That's how the factories do it. |
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gws
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Post by gws on Jul 27, 2014 23:34:29 GMT -5
Now a little warning about squeaky clean wet tumbled cases and case lube at sizing time:
In my experience with .308 LC brass, that hurt the eyes clean brass may tax your lube to the limits. I haven't stuck one case in 42 years of reloading using RCBS's lube, but recently 5 years ago, I started using Imperial Wax. It also worked like a dream (and with less mess)until I gave it the ultimate test......Thumlered (stainless media).308 LC. No I didn't stick one, but I would have if I had been bent on finishing the sizing strokes. It would not size with effort normally experienced with hard to size (perhaps machine gunned) brass. So I put away my Imperial and tried the old RCBS lube pad again. (had to recharge it because it hadn't been used for a while) It worked.
I think the Thumlers wet method actually introduces more friction than normal brass has so beware. I never have that problem with factory or dry tumbled brass. So do be careful. Since .556 brass is smaller, you may not have even a little problem with it, but I thought it would be nice at least warn.
And don't let this scare you out of reloading rifle. Remember my first statement: not one stuck case in 42 years with the stuff you are using. Happy reloading!
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Post by erjdriver on Jul 28, 2014 10:04:23 GMT -5
Thanks for your input in this, GWS! I think I now have enough to go on to make this into a pretty good success!! Have a great day everyone...y'all ROCK!!! |
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Post by erjdriver on Jul 28, 2014 10:27:05 GMT -5
After doing some research on the web site from where I've purchased all my 5.56/.223 brass, here is what they say about the brass they ship to their customers: "Most brass is cleaned in commercial vibratory machinery with non-abrasive ceramic media and brass-safe water and soap solution. This process leaves a very clean, dust free product that is great for loading. Some small batch brass is cleaned with traditional dry media and brass safe polish."Therefore, I don't think I'll even put the rest of this brass I have yet to clean through the tumbler until AFTER I have it resized, prepped, trimmed, and completely processed. If I pick up brass at the range, I'll just tumble it for a short bit in soapy water only to clean it of dirt and grit. I think I now have a solid plan to get this 5.56/.223 brass reloaded. Thanks again for all your input and wisdom, y'all...GREAT gaggle of folks here!!! |
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gws
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Post by gws on Jul 28, 2014 10:41:38 GMT -5
You're welcome, erj, but one more warning is prudent: If you don't have one already get a Wilson case gage in .223. Use it to make sure your die setting will make ammo that falls all the way in and rests between the outer and inner gage marks in the head. If they don't re-adjust the depth of your die. That's the minimum requirement.
Then make sure the OAL of the finished round should at least go into your rifle's magazines, without touching the tips to the magazine edge. If you set length to the common "ideal" .002" shy of the lands, as advised by those who shoot bolt guns, you will be long and they usually won't fit your mags. IOW's the magazine is the determining factor in over all length in this case not measurements taken with the usual OAL case gages. The vital measurement for which I use the RCBS Precision Mic or a similar Hornady gage used with your calipers, is to stay .002 to .004 shorter at the shoulder than the chamber's shoulder. At least .002" to make sure the rounds go into battery ALL the way (bolt closes completely). More than .004 means you have to bump the shoulders back more than necessary and such reduces case life.
Check a New factory round by measuring where the shoulder is from the case's base. Then fire it in your gun, and again take the same measurement. The difference might be as much as .007". So if you resize back 7 thousands, you've worked the brass a lot. You don't want to repeat that stretch back and forth if you plan to use that brass over and over. On the other hand you don't want to leave the shoulder as long as you measured after firing, or your gun won't cycle and probably won't close the bolt fully in battery. Damned dangerous.
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Post by erjdriver on Jul 28, 2014 15:11:28 GMT -5
Thanks again, sir. I bought a Lyman Case Length Headspace Gage for .223...will that work in lieu of the Wilson? I have heard, though, that Wilson's gages are "the shiznet". As for OAL, can I match the OAL of a factory Federal round that I currently have in my inventory? I've shot these rounds and have had zero feed or eject failures. It would seem logical that if I emulate those rounds, I shouldn't have any problems. But like you said, I could potentially work the brass too much if the expansion is excessive in my specific chamber. Still asking newbie questions, I'm sure.  ETA:Just wanted to add that I have both the Lee and Speer Reloading Guides...getting good info outta them in terms of case measurement, OAL, etc. |
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gws
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Post by gws on Jul 29, 2014 1:33:18 GMT -5
I don't know much about the Lyman gages....so I can't guide you there. The Wilsons aren't perfect....you can cause a crimp bulge that may go in and not in your Chamber, and machine gunned brass that goes in the gage may not go in every chamber in the base area. But since you are using Small based dies you may never see that. Fact is, it's not that common, but it happens. I have a Remington R25 (DPMS AR10 clone) that will not auto feed certain Federal Factory brass in the base area (friction in the last 1/2" inch), yet they fall in and gage within specs in the Wilson gage I have. One thing I've learned these 42 years is that NO one makes perfect tools......but I'm glad they try. With them and a little common sense you can make them work well for you.
As for mimicking factory OAL, yes it works. Whether it makes the most accurate ammo in your gun is only found by trial and error. Dangun is the expert here on teaching how to find the sweet spot for any rifle. So you can do that for now, but you may find it rewarding to try to better factory ammo down the road. That said, the longest round you can make outside the specialty competition guns with special single shot competition mags, is one that fits and feeds in the factory mag. Whether the longest within that limitation is best for your gun.....only you can know that by trial and error.
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Thanks for all the input and suggestions...I just hope to not screw something up with my press and/or sizing die, but I'm sure I wouldn't be the first and certainly not the last. HOPEFULLY with the guidance y'all are providing here, I can avoid the common pitfalls.
Thanks for all the advice, y'all!!!
) his primer pockets and case neck will be sparkling new, so cleaning them before tumbling would be moot. 
Pooh I hope you find to right house . 
