|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 10, 2014 22:06:58 GMT -5
I don't know what the hell is going on here. I loaded some .40 S&W test rounds about a week ago and they came out fine. Then I got the new Detent Ball Spring and it seems everything has gone to hell in a hand basket here. I took the press completely apart, cleaned/lubed everything and re-calibrated the index arm and set everything back up.
I readjusted my powder expander (bell on case mouth looks good), got the powder charge dialed in (steady 6.5gr with Accurate #7), got the lock-out die set up (smooth operation). The bullet feeder doesn't work but that's no big deal for now and I know what the problem is. But my PRIMARY concern is that I'm now slightly crushing or putting some pretty good wrinkles in my case during the seat and crimp stage. What in the name of all the is holy and good did I do wrong here??? Could it be something as simple as lube? I'm using RCBS Carbide Dies.
I was getting to the frustration point this afternoon, so I just walked away from the press. HELP!!!!
Thanks!
|
|
|
|
Post by hacker54 on Oct 10, 2014 22:27:39 GMT -5
erj,
Check the setup on the set and crimp. Double check that you are in sync here. Check the amount of flair/bell to the case mouth to see if you have enough to start the bullet into the case. Maybe with the new spring you might have to readjust the dies to compensate for the new spring. Then you might have to adjust your rhythm. Maybe some one else can add more to this.
|
|
gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on Oct 11, 2014 0:40:25 GMT -5
1. Spring shouldn't have any effect on seating unless you are not allowing the ball under the shell plate to push into the plate's detent depression. It's not going to be a hard snap as before, but it still has to "snap in". You did apply a little grease on the ball and the underside of the shell plate, right? You don't want friction to stop index completion.
2. After expanding pull off the case, set it on the bench, place a bullet on top and check to see if the bullet is sitting completely inside the flared case all around. You can't have a case edge against the bullet's base. Set your expander to expand more if case edges aren't clear.
3. As for the bullet feeder, re-read the directions about how much flare is required. They mean that much, really! The bullet has to sit stable and vertical INSIDE the flare while the press indexes to the seater.
I'll quote myself on my review:
"380/9mm––––.385"flare
38/357––––––-.387"flare
40S&W/10mm––-.430"flare
44SPL/44Mag––-.460
.451/.452––––––––––.481 Gentlemen, that's .030" bigger than the bullets!"
4. Beyond that.... if you're going to seat and crimp in one station, careful adjustment of the seater is necessary.....and requires trial and error until it's right. A correctly adjusted seat & taper crimp won't crush anything unless the case isn't flared enough and a case edge is interfering with the bullet.
5. Don't over-crimp. Crimp should be only enough to remove the flare you added with the expander. BTW, what kind of bullets are you seating?
|
|
dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
|
Post by dangun on Oct 11, 2014 23:36:23 GMT -5
The only thing I can think of other that what has been posted above is to make sure your crimp die is for taper crimps. I have seen some 40S&W die that were doing roll crimps. and I have seen those roll crimp dies crush the cases.
|
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 12, 2014 7:53:50 GMT -5
Thanks once again for the learned guidance and responses, gentlemen. The Tube Bullet Feeder requires a .03" case flare, but I had the flare set for somewhere around .02" because I wasn't using the Bullet Feeder. So here's what I'm gonna do based on y'alls posts: 1. Get some grease and add a light coat to the bottom of the shell plate and the detent ball. 2. I'll readjust the flare to a total of no less than .43 and go from there. 3. Insert a new set of bullet fingers in the Tube Bullet Feeder Die. 4. And I'm pretty sure I just did it, but I'll clean the seating/crimping die again. Anything else? 'Preciate y'all!!! Edits:GWS - I am seating 165gr RNFP FMJ bullets from Everglades; true jacketed, NOT plated:  dangun - RCBS 3-Die set |
|
bob
Member
I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457 
Location: Northern California
|
Post by bob on Oct 12, 2014 9:28:45 GMT -5
erj, I am not familiar with the 40's dies but quite familiar with RCBS,as everyone above mentioned but you don't mention, readjusting the seating die. Is the seating die marked "taper crimp" if not you have a standard die that can roll crimp if the die itself is set too low.
|
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 12, 2014 16:06:04 GMT -5
erj, I am not familiar with the 40's dies but quite familiar with RCBS,as everyone above mentioned but you don't mention, readjusting the seating die. Is the seating die marked "taper crimp" if not you have a standard die that can roll crimp if the die itself is set too low. Hey Mr. Bob... The crimping die itself is labeled "RCBS 40 S&W TC SEAT 13" The seating PLUG is labeled "40 SWC" I paid particular attention to the description in all the dies I bought from Midway making SURE I got taper crimp for .40 S&W and 9mm. Believe me...I've doubted myself.  |
|
bob
Member
I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
|
Post by bob on Oct 12, 2014 19:30:50 GMT -5
erj, I had to ask I know from time to time I need someone to question me when a problem exists. Your seating plug is labled "40 Semi Wad Cutter" not RN which you are loading. I don't know if this is a problem maybe someone else will add something to this.
|
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 12, 2014 20:27:19 GMT -5
erj, I had to ask I know from time to time I need someone to question me when a problem exists. Your seating plug is labled "40 Semi Wad Cutter" not RN which you are loading. I don't know if this is a problem maybe someone else will add something to this. Oh believe me...I second and third guess myself constantly, so I appreciate your jumping on the band-wagon!! As for the Seating Plug, that's the only plug that came with the .40 S&W die set. To my knowledge, the other plug (if included) would be a Round Nose (RN) plug like the one in my .38/.357 Die Set (came with both an RN and SWC Seating Plug). Since pretty much all .40 S&W bullets are flat point (at least the ones I've seen so far and like the ones pictured above), I believe the proper plug to use for this bullet seating is the Semi Wad Cutter plug, since the seating portion is flat to match the flat point of the .40 bullet. I'll be working on all this tomorrow..... |
|
bob
Member
I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
|
Post by bob on Oct 12, 2014 23:51:14 GMT -5
Good Luck, I hope you figure the problem out.
|
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 14, 2014 11:26:25 GMT -5
***** UPDATE ****** OK… So I started my .40 S&W reloading from step 1 this morning. I believe everything is looking pretty good, however I’ve come across an interesting dilemma. If I check the rounds with the Lyman Cartridge Gage (pictured below), the cases don’t even seat in the gage. HOWEVER, if I drop the rounds in one of my .40 S&W barrels (used my H&K P2000SK), they drop right in. Is the Lyman gage just a big ‘ol piece of human excrement??? I’ve heard Wilson gages are the shiznet, but I only have those for my Smith & Wesson Model 686-3. If they drop in the pistol barrel without issue, I say I have no problem. What say y’all??  p.s. These are just "plinking" rounds.....competition accuracy (which I don't possess in the first place) is not paramount for these rounds. |
|
|
|
Post by hacker54 on Oct 14, 2014 12:33:42 GMT -5
ERJ, Your Lyman gauge might have very tight tolerances. I don't know. What is your COL of your loaded rounds? This might be why it is not going into your gauge. Another thing is case length will affect this also. Here is a photo of what to look for using your barrel. I use this method when loading for my 9mm and 40 S&W.  |
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 14, 2014 12:46:40 GMT -5
Hey Hacker...
Before starting my .40 reloading endeavors, I checked the COL of 5 factory rounds of Federal American Eagle. They were (oddly enough) 1.124", 1.125", 1.126", 1.127", and 1.128. Therefore, I've set up the bullet seating for the avg of 1.126". The one thing I have yet to do, which I guess would be a good test, is put some factory rounds in the Lyman gage; that would answer my question right there. I'm sizing all the way down the length of the case and I would bet the sizing die is no more than 2mm from touching the shell plate.
But like I said, all the rounds are seating in the barrel beautifully. They've all looked like the good pictures in your illustration.
Things that make you go "hmmmmm"......
Thanks for the feedback!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by springfieldxdm on Oct 14, 2014 19:08:08 GMT -5
I would venture to guess the brass is random range pickup fired through a gun with an unsupported chamber. This will create the "glock bulge" that everyone talks about, and is likely why the case won't sit in the case gauge properly. Your barrel may be on the generous size or is also unsupported allowing the rounds to seat properly there. If your only going to run those rounds through that particular pistol you will be ok. However if this is stash ammo or will be fired in other guns you may want to run the brass through the bulge buster kit from Lee first. They say you can run live ammo through it, I've never done it. Just my 2 pennies.
|
|
|
|
Post by springfieldxdm on Oct 14, 2014 19:16:49 GMT -5
Just re read the last post. No matter how close the die is to the shell plate there will be a little section that won't be resized completely.
|
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 14, 2014 20:07:30 GMT -5
This is brass from Everglades; here is their product description: "This brass is cleaned, 40 cal range brass. Mixed headstamp brass sourced from private and law enforcement ranges. We use a dust-free cleaning process that polishes the cases and removes dirt, sand or other foreign matter. The brass is hand sorted to remove unserviceable pieces and extra brass is included to cover any damaged pieces missed during the inspection process."So I would imagine there is brass in the total 5,000 pieces that I bought from Everglades that is susceptible to the "Glock bulge", ESPECIALLY seeing how a lot of it is probably from LE ranges and they commonly shoot Glocks. I just ordered some 9mm and .45 ACP from TopBrass that I'll be reloading with/for my brother, so I'll see how that shapes up. Thanks for the tip on the Lee Bulge Buster Kit..... ETA:Tested some factory Federal American Eagle rounds and they slide right into the Lyman gage. At least that makes me feel better about the gage!!   to everyone for their input! |
|
|
|
Post by hacker54 on Oct 14, 2014 21:03:07 GMT -5
ERJ, You can invest in the Lee Bulge Buster kit or you can invest in the Lee Factory Carbide Crimp Die which I do have in the 9mm and 40 S&W. I crimp in a separate step. The die will post size the case while you apply the taper crimp. Here is a link to their page on this type of die. This may be of some help. Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die |
|
SnapShot
Member
Jeep & Mocha "Remembering Patches, always"
Posts: 699
Location: Finally free from the Republic of Kalifornia!
|
Post by SnapShot on Oct 15, 2014 11:22:45 GMT -5
Hey there ERJ ~
Just an additional note to Hacker's suggestion on the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. He recommended these dies to me while dealing with feeding issues many months ago. I bought a die and found it to be a fix for ALL of my feeding issues. I know have these dies for everything I reload (except my 50AE & 500 Magnum, they don't make them for these).
Adding an additional step for crimping rather than seating/crimping in one step has solved a lot of reloading problems and greatly improved the quality of my finished work. It is well worth the extra step.
~ SnapShot
|
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 15, 2014 18:51:32 GMT -5
OK...thanks guys!! Y'all have me SERIOUSLY considering turning seating and crimping into a 2-step process. It's nice to have a bullet feeder, but if it's gonna keep me from having a quality reloaded product, then I guess it needs to go.
Now just spiff-balling here...
What if I were to get the die that can size the case after the round has been completed...the Bulge Buster Die? I don't mind for one minute producing the rounds "as is" in the Pro2000 (keeping my bullet feeder in place) and then just running the finished rounds through the Lee die in my single-stage press. If I were to do this (per your comment, Springfield, about the Lee Bulge Buster Die), would it work in taking care of this issue for rounds already loaded?
|
|
dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
|
Post by dangun on Oct 16, 2014 8:45:14 GMT -5
Sorry I haven't kept up with this thread. If I where you I would get the Wilson gage or better yet get the EGW chamber checker I would also buy the EGW undersize dies I use these on almost all handgun brass. They are Lee dies that have been modified by EGW. I have a couple of the LEE bulge buster push through dies and have not been completely happy with them. Note: A cartridge or chamber checker gage is much more reliable than dropping a loaded round in the chamber. Just because it will drop in by hand doesn't mean it will function correctly in the gun. Dropping straight in is easy but stripping one out of a magazine and ramming it into a chamber at an angle requires a properly size case along with all the other variables. Bullet seating and such! Nothing can be more inconvenient or dangerous in a life or death situation than having to rely on ammo that won't chamber. Load as if your life depends on it! |
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 16, 2014 10:07:02 GMT -5
Sorry I haven't kept up with this thread. If I where you I would get the Wilson gage or better yet get the EGW chamber checker I would also buy the EGW undersize dies I use these on almost all handgun brass. They are Lee dies that have been modified by EGW. I have a couple of the LEE bulge buster push through dies and have not been completely happy with them. Note: A cartridge or chamber checker gage is much more reliable than dropping a loaded round in the chamber. Just because it will drop in by hand doesn't mean it will function correctly in the gun. Dropping straight in is easy but stripping one out of a magazine and ramming it into a chamber at an angle requires a properly size case along with all the other variables. Bullet seating and such! Nothing can be more inconvenient or dangerous in a life or death situation than having to rely on ammo that won't chamber. Load as if your life depends on it! I did see the EGW dies when researching my latest bulge issue; they are worth consideration for sure. I looked primarily into the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die (received great reviews) and viewed several videos on YouTube demonstrating the Bulge Buster Kit. I'm going to give that a shot and actually started a new thread in "On the Bench" to report my findings once I work with this combo. As previously stated, I will be using ALL reloaded ammo for plinking purposes only (unless the zombie apocalypse occurs and I'm voted "armorer"...hope that never happens). If I need to rely on anything in a life or death situation, I'll be relying on factory ammo in those instances. My "go to" self-defense ammo in order of preference is 1) Federal Premium HST JHP, 2) Speer Gold Dot JHP, or 3) Federal Premium Hydra-Shok JHP. NEVER (and they say "never say never"), but I'll NEVER utilize reloaded ammo when exercising my 2nd Amendment rights and CHL privileges so granted by the U.S. Constitution and the great Republic of Texas.  Nonetheless, sage wisdom and advice, sir! Thank you! |
|
|
|
Post by krwada on Oct 16, 2014 11:10:45 GMT -5
Sorry I haven't kept up with this thread. If I where you I would get the Wilson gage or better yet get the EGW chamber checker I would also buy the EGW undersize dies I use these on almost all handgun brass. They are Lee dies that have been modified by EGW. I have a couple of the LEE bulge buster push through dies and have not been completely happy with them. Note: A cartridge or chamber checker gage is much more reliable than dropping a loaded round in the chamber. Just because it will drop in by hand doesn't mean it will function correctly in the gun. Dropping straight in is easy but stripping one out of a magazine and ramming it into a chamber at an angle requires a properly size case along with all the other variables. Bullet seating and such! Nothing can be more inconvenient or dangerous in a life or death situation than having to rely on ammo that won't chamber. Load as if your life depends on it! Hello Dan; I feel another purchase coming in! So ... what does a chamber checker do? I am having difficulty with cycling with the competition grade M1911 that I am loading for. Ken |
|
gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on Oct 16, 2014 11:27:18 GMT -5
erjdriver, I bought and use the Redding Grx push-through die when I started reloading .40 S&W. Lee's push through was a marketing reaction to the Redding product. Haven't tried the Lee. Mine isn't carbide....their pricey carbide versions of the push-through came later. I just spray-lube a box of .40, stir, and push them all through. Then I load normally using Lee's pistol dies. I have no feeding problems with my Ruger SR40. The Kahr CW 40 is another matter, more related to bullet than case. Gold Dots! Even factory Speer Gold Dots don't get along with the Kahr. I need to experiment with OAL to see if I can get them to work. No problem with FMJ's, but that Kahr mangles the super soft Gold Dot noses.
Ken, about your competition grade M1911. I had trouble at first with my Kimber Stainless Target II, using some factory, as well as my reloads. I heard a world champion-class competition-type say that the first thing to try should be Wilson Tac magazines. I bought a few and voila! The problems went away. It seems that presentation from magazine to feed ramp is the #1 gotcha with competition 19ll's......more so than ammo design. #2 gotcha is OAL.
|
|
|
|
Post by springfieldxdm on Oct 16, 2014 21:18:20 GMT -5
OK...thanks guys!! Y'all have me SERIOUSLY considering turning seating and crimping into a 2-step process. It's nice to have a bullet feeder, but if it's gonna keep me from having a quality reloaded product, then I guess it needs to go. Now just spiff-balling here... What if I were to get the die that can size the case after the round has been completed...the Bulge Buster Die? I don't mind for one minute producing the rounds "as is" in the Pro2000 (keeping my bullet feeder in place) and then just running the finished rounds through the Lee die in my single-stage press. If I were to do this (per your comment, Springfield, about the Lee Bulge Buster Die), would it work in taking care of this issue for rounds already loaded? I usually don't run many loaded round through as I do the prep work before, but it should fix you up nicely for your already completed rounds. Use lube otherwise your arm is gonna hurt from all the leverage. While I don't wear tight t-shirts, after bulge busting 500 rounds for idpa the other day my strong arm filled out the shirt quite nicely. It was a damn shame it didn't help my scores or my chance with the wife the next day. |
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 16, 2014 22:50:11 GMT -5
Springfield, I just went through all the .40 S&W I've reloaded so far and estimate I've loaded approx. 250 rounds. Out of those, I found 105 that fit nicely in my Lyman Cartridge Gage, so the remaining 150 or so will go through the Bulge Buster. I have over 4,500 pieces of .40 S&W brass remaining, so those will go through the bulge buster before I even start to reload them on the Pro2000. The bad news is that I loaded almost 1,000 rounds of .45 ACP for a buddy of mine that has a Thompson M1A1 (semi-auto) and will probably have to send all of those through the bulge buster kit, as I think I over crimped the cases and caused a self-imposed bulge near the base. I know they don't fit the Lyman Cartridge Gage, but I haven't "barrel checked" them yet. If they look like they'll seat in the barrel properly, I might avoid having to do this for the .45 ACP rounds. If not, I'll probably use this opportunity to familiarize myself with Imperial Lube and only tackle them in lots of 100/day... |
|
|
|
Post by springfieldxdm on Oct 17, 2014 6:39:16 GMT -5
I would assume the Thompson platform would have a generous chamber. My old Commando Mark III replica had a super sized chamber and flat destroyed the brass. May try a few to see if they will work before throwing them through the bulge kit.
|
|
dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
|
Post by dangun on Oct 17, 2014 8:27:22 GMT -5
ERJ,
Here is were we differ in opinions. I won't rely on factory ammo for my personal protection. I load and carry my own cast reloads. I don't buy into the fancy zombie killing ammo or the fancy hollow pointed super duper super expanding bad guy killing personal protection ammo.
Ken,
The EGW chamber checker is basically the same thing as the Wilson cartridge Gage or the Lyman Gage the ERJ posted a picture of. The difference is that you can check several at once. As Greg posted in many failures to feed the magazine played in a big part of the failure.
|
|
|
|
Post by erjdriver on Oct 17, 2014 9:43:26 GMT -5
ERJ, Here is were we differ in opinions. I won't rely on factory ammo for my personal protection. I load and carry my own cast reloads. I don't buy into the fancy zombie killing ammo or the fancy hollow pointed super duper super expanding bad guy killing personal protection ammo. I can certainly appreciate that! Yeah...the "green tipped" stuff. What a racket THAT is!!! I want to smack my brother around 'cuz he just bought some...goober. Once I get REALLY comfortable with the quality of what I'm reloading and my confidence is topping the scale, I'll certainly consider carrying the ammo I produce at home. I'm discovering there is a fine art to this than merely sitting at a bench pulling a handle. I've now learned you can do EVERYTHING right, but if the crimp is off, you have bung-holed rounds that won't work. Right now, I'm still a mere neophyte trying to learn the do's and don'ts and this slight crushing and bulging issue has shaken my confidence a little.  I do want to say THANKS to everyone that's helping me limp along... |
|
dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
|
Post by dangun on Oct 17, 2014 11:24:06 GMT -5
I remember many a day reloading only to realize that all was not good. Fortunately those days are fewer and farther apart but only from learning the hard way. You are lucky in that there are forums such as this and people willing to share their experience and knowledge. When I started it was the manuals, the library, maybe a gun club member that would help you get started but beyond that we had very little info to help us through all the do's and don'ts.
We all have been where you are. We all know the frustrations of loading and then discovering something isn't right. Some of us still do that on occasion. Don't sweat the small stuff. This situation isn't a dead stick landing on a runway too far away.
Don't let your confidence get shaken. Just remember it as a learning experience. I'm sure it won't be long before you start giving out more advice than you're asking for. Knowledge is power!
|
|
to everyone for their input!
Pooh I hope you find to right house . 
