7mmmountaineer
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Oct 22, 2014 15:48:45 GMT -5
Ok so I was on HODGDON's load data site looking at 25-06 loads for my buddy when I noticed some odd numbered powders. I thought I was going crazy or seeing things till I went on the IMR site and low and behold bigger than shit their are 3 of them. I called Jason and told him I wanted 2lbs of each if he can find them.
IMR 4166™
IMR 4166
This fine, extruded propellant is the first in the series of Enduron Technology powders. The main features of the Enduron series are copper fouling eliminator, insensitivity to temperature changes, ideal loading density and being environmentally friendly. IMR 4166 is the perfect burn speed for cartridges like the 308 Win/7.62mm NATO, 22-250 Remington, 257 Roberts and dozens more. Positively, a versatile, match grade propellant.
IMR 4451™
IMR 4451
Another new Enduron extruded powder, IMR 4451, gives top performance in the venerable 30-06, 270 Winchester and 300 Winchester Short Magnum, to name just a few. This propellant is ideally suited for many, many mid-range burn speed cartridges. Simply scroll through the list of cartridges on the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center, and see how many of your favorite cartridges are covered with this fine powder. Once the shooter tries this one in that favorite cartridge, his search is over!
IMR 7977™
IMR 7977
The slowest burn rate Enduron Technology extruded powder is IMR 7977, and is a true magnum cartridge propellant. It yields outstanding performance in such cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum, 7mm Remington Magnum, 338 Lapua and a host of others. Loading density is perfect for magnums, nicely filling the case at maximum charges, contributing to superb uniformity and accuracy. The 7mm Remington Magnum “never had it so good”!
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bob
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I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
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Location: Northern California
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Post by bob on Oct 22, 2014 18:31:29 GMT -5
Gonna haf ta look 'n ta them! Thanks for the post Chuck!
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bob
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I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
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Post by bob on Oct 22, 2014 18:43:29 GMT -5
Chuck, I just looked at them and the seem to develop higher pressures than some of the older powders it will be interesting to see how they preform!
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Oct 22, 2014 19:27:39 GMT -5
I noticed that also Bob, but they run the gamut of calibers I am loading for from 223 to 300 WSM. Jason called me right before he closed and told me one of his distributors claims to be getting some in the next couple of weeks. I told him to put me in for at least 2lbs of each but I would really like a #8 of each if he can get them. That way if I like it I don't have to worry about finding it again later on like I had to with Ramshot Hunter.
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gws
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Location: NW New Mexico
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Post by gws on Oct 22, 2014 20:18:38 GMT -5
What I was impressed about was your words, "gives top performance in the venerable 30-06, 270 Winchester and 300 Winchester Short Magnum"!!!! I didn't know you were capable of printing that.  Ok, I know you were just quoting from the IMR site, but I had to rib a little. I will have to try some 4166 for my .243 & .308. I take it the kernels are short cut so they will measure well? |
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Oct 26, 2014 18:09:11 GMT -5
GWS my disdain for the good ole venerable 06 and 270 was earned over many years of drubbing and silly conversations. Now I more people that own both of them then I do people that own just one of them or like me neither of them LOL............
The part of the entire copy and past that I like the most is for 7977 " THE 7 REMINGTON MAG NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD" I will put that one to the test....... |
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Nov 7, 2014 9:10:17 GMT -5
Just got a #8 keg of 4166 and 7977 Jason's supplier was right he is getting them and I got them at what Jason called an introductory price $169 per keg. My 4551 will be hear next week oh the joy like a kid at Christmas I am  . Gonna hit the bench in a few and do some tinkering with both of these powders the 4166 in my 7-08 and 308 and the 7977 in you guessed it my 7RM. Rain or not I will be testing later today.
BTW Powder Valley lists 4166 as in stock at $182.75 for a #8 keg but none of the others just yet.......
Figure to test the following:
IMR 4166: 7-08 145GR SPR BTSP 40-43GR 160GR SPR BTSP 36.7-39.3GR 308 150GR NOS E-TIP 41.5-45.7GR 165GR HOR SST 40.2-44.9GR IMR 7977: 7RM 150GR NOS BT&PART 65.5-70.9GR 160GR SPR BTSP 63.7-68.9GR
All will be tested in .3 steps from low to high. I will start all of them at my rifles established seating depth and adjust if needed. the 308 and 7-08 will be Norma Brass and Fed 210 primers. The 7RM will be Hornady Brass and WLRM primers. It looks like it will be a very fun weekend ROFLMAO........... |
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Post by krwada on Nov 7, 2014 10:49:37 GMT -5
The 4166 looks like it may be the new version of the IMR4064 ... maybe with a little faster burn + better metering?
Let us know how these powders work for you Chuck. Like others here ... I am very interested in what you find out.
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Nov 7, 2014 16:34:26 GMT -5
Ok so I just did a 50 round session with IMR7977 with virgin Hornady brass and 160gr Spr. BTSP's loaded to my rifles ogive length of 2.745. I ran 5 rounds per charge weight starting at 63.7 going up in .3 steps to 66.4. I shot 5 shot groups giving the rifle time to stay fairly cool between shots with temps hovering in the 30's that was not very difficult to do. My preferred load for this bullet is 67.4gr of Retumbo at 2900 fps average and this load holds half MOA out to 300yds and .75 MOA between 400 and 500yds.
The first thing I noticed with this powder in my rifle is the difference in recoil. Up to this point the recoil is more like a shove instead of the sharp jolting push I get with the Retumbo load. Recoil kind of reminds me of the IMR4007SSC which is more shove than say what I get from IMR4895 or 4350 in my 7-08. That said the wife said the loads had more of a hollow thud sound attached to them than the crack of a rifle round she is use to. Granted with as wet as it has been here the last couple weeks that could have made the report sound somewhat different. The second and biggest thing I noticed was that from the first round to the last this powder was more accurate. From the first round to the last the biggest group I shot for 5 rounds was 1.118 the smallest being .990 at 100yds. With Retumbo that kind of accuracy wasn't reached till above mid weight on the charge. Now Retumbo and a little 7828 are the only powders before today that I have used with this rifle. The fact that the barrel is good and broke in might have aided the accuracy of this powder.
Tomorrow I will finish the cycle I have started now the decide were I go from their. This close to season I am thinking I will stick with my established load for season but if something really jumps of a target at me I might switch. I will pick the most accurate loads and do a chrono test on them later on all in all I like the powder. Will know shortly if and how much it eliminates any copper fouling. I started with the Spr bullets because they seem to leave more copper behind than any other bullet I use in this rifle. Sunday I will start on my 4166 and my 7-08 more will follow. Sorry not exactly know for giving reviews. |
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Nov 7, 2014 23:53:36 GMT -5
Copper fouling was less that's for sure. It only took me 38 minutes to get the barrel clean (yes I timed it) were it normally takes me about 90 minutes to get it clean. Side note this powder did produce more of a carbon build up than the Retumbo but with the reduction in copper fouling I won't argue with it. 2 short 15 minute soaks with Hoppes Elite Copper Terminator and 3 quick scrubs with Hoppes Elite Bore Cleaner and I was done. With Retumbo I would soak for 25-30 minutes each time not that the copper was hard to get out since I let the chemical do the work.
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Nov 10, 2014 8:29:17 GMT -5
I have been a little remiss sorry fellas. So I did finish this cycle before my migraine set in on me the other day and this is what I know for sure:
1) This powder in my rifle with 160gr Speer BTSP's is pretty darn accurate at 100yds. I shot 18 5 shot groups and the group ave size was 1.172 and that's just because I blew 2 groups with pee poor form totally my fault.
2) Their is a real difference in the type of recoil if their is such a thing. Recoil is to me more like a sustained shove instead of a sudden hard push.
3) The report is like the wife said more of a dull hollow thud then the sharp crack you would expect from a rifle. Had 2 people their Saturday when I shot they both said that with Retumbo the report was a much sharper crack.
4) This powder dose a pretty good job of keeping copper fouling down. It doesn't eliminate it but it dose reduce the amount of copper left behind.
I will chrono test the most accurate loads I tried I had a couple loads shoot in the .7-.8 range and will chrono those when I get the time to after deer season. Best groups were attained at higher loads 67.9 and 68.5 the two groups I blew I will reshoot they were 68.8 and 68.2.
Going to try this powder in my step son's Browning AB3. |
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Nov 12, 2014 10:24:19 GMT -5
Ok so yesterday I ran a cycle with 4166 and 145 and 160gr Speer BTSP's. The charge weights are as follows with 145's 40-43gr in .3 steps top to bottom with the 160's 36.7-39.3 again in .3 steps top to bottom. This is what I noticed:
1) This powder like the 7977 seems to recoil more along the lines of a sustained shove that a sharp push like other powders I have tried in the rifle I used.
2) This powder gives a good accounting accuracy wise like the 7977 that accuracy was present from the first round to the last.
3) This powder is very clean burning and did a better job of copper eliminating that the 7977 did. Barrel cleaning took a total of 23 minutes. I did however use a different product too KG12.
4) This powder pushes bullets 145gr and under very well but with heavier bullets it was more of a plodder. An accurate plodder but a plodder. I would not use this powder with 160gr loads at all. I still will test it with 150gr SIE GK's.
All loads were shot from a Rem 700 SPS Varmint with my rifles preferred seating depth, all brass was Norman once fired, all primers were Fed 210's. Average group size for 3 shot groups was in the .6-.7 range across the board. Had one bad group with the 145's but reshot that group and it fell in line with the others. Am going to pick up my 4551 this afternoon. |
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gws
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Post by gws on Nov 12, 2014 11:41:35 GMT -5
Assuming up to now your tests are with 7mm08, correct? Are you still going to test some .308 with the 4166? I'm more interested in the accuracy, and lack of fouling in .308. Plodding kills just as good, I'm told. Thanks for the testing info! Since I am the proud? owner of a Mauser .22-243 (Actually, I really AM a bit giddy to actually have a totally different project to play with), I've ordered parts and dies to try handloading for it, so when you brought up these new powders to try, I've been intrigued about trying IMR 4166 in this .22-243, using 55 and 52 grain Sierras I happen to have in stock. In this case velocity is important to me, seeing that the experiment with this wildcat is all about "laser" mode........yeah, and I need to find some smaller pills to try too! So much fun to experience......so little time!  |
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7mmmountaineer
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Nov 12, 2014 13:00:37 GMT -5
Yes Greg I am still going to do a test run for my 308 it just wont be till sometime over the weekend. That is if my step son ever gets out of my way  ....... |
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Nov 13, 2014 12:57:36 GMT -5
GWS packing the 308 up to a lease I hunt on. Will report what I find out next week. Also taking my summit press dies and all the other stuff I need to run a couple cycles with the 308. Its getting a little heated here so I am gonna take a break.
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
Posts: 521
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Nov 15, 2014 13:03:14 GMT -5
GWS I did get to run a cycle this morning with 150gr E-Tip and 4166 in my 308. I found out a couple things with this powder and non lead bullets it pressures up pretty quickly. At just 44.2gr I started to notice a difference in bolt lift and primer flattened more than I usually get with the other powders I use with these bullets. At 44.5 I stopped because I didn't want to chance having problems. Accuracy was good till I hit the 44.2gr load then it started to open up at 44.5 I was at 1.45 for a 3 shot group. I think I will try this with lead core bullets and see how it dose but that is for a different day as Monday I go back to work and the following week is rifle deer season here.
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
Posts: 521
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Jan 17, 2015 14:50:09 GMT -5
Ok so I finally have something that is really working with 7977 and my 7RM trade with the boy because he wanted a stainless so he has my Win Mod 70 Ultimate Shadow I took his Browning AB3. The picture in my avatar is the load I found. 68.9gr IMR 7977 and 160gr Speer BTSP's chrono ave is 3012fps with an ES of 13 and an SD of 10. I also have a target I shot at 200yds but can not figure out how to post it out of my pictures.
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jbnut
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Post by jbnut on Feb 13, 2015 20:04:39 GMT -5
Chuck,
I've been looking for the new powders to try since you posted about them here with no luck. The other day I was looking on the Gun Broker sight and the shop I bought my CZ 527 at had some of the new powders up for auction. Most of their powder auctions have a minimum bid but these 2 auctions started at .01 so I jumped in. Well 1 auction was for (2) 1lb jugs of 4166 and the other was for (2) 1lb jugs of 4451. Well I won both auctions and weather permitting I'll be going to pick them up tomorrow.
For the (2) lbs of 4166 I'm paying $30.25 and the (2) lbs of 4451 I'm paying $20.25. I think I did pretty well getting 4 lbs of powder for $53.53 after tax. New powders, new CCI primers, maybe I'll have to break open the bag of new brass I have tucked away.
John |
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Feb 13, 2015 22:10:31 GMT -5
That's a flipping great score JB !!!!!!!!! Try both in your son's 7-08 or the 4551 in your 270 ...... I was impatient to get it but my local guy scored big for me. I have found it a bunch of places online lately. HMMMMMM I better check my stock LOL...... |
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My daughter came from Missouri, my son and grand son, my wife and I had a nice dinner of grilled "porter house" pork chops, corn on the cobb, my son, G'son and I share 10/5. G'son is 4 minutes early though @ 10/4.
Pooh I hope you find to right house . 
