et1
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Location: Ontario Canada
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Post by et1 on Nov 15, 2014 20:14:48 GMT -5
I’m curious to know how many here have bedded there scope mounts? I know the principle behind doing this but found I’ve personally never had a scope issue that would warrant scope mount bedding. I would enjoy hearing thoughts on the subject.
Ed
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bob
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I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
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Location: Northern California
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Post by bob on Nov 15, 2014 23:14:12 GMT -5
et1, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I have always just mounted the base then I took a 1" dowel or more lately a piece of 1" cold rolled steel tubing and aligned the rings and mounted the scope.
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dangun
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Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Nov 16, 2014 0:48:11 GMT -5
If the scope mount is not an integral part of the top to the action, then scope mount bedding is a must. Well for me anyway. No matter either way not any of it will help IF the rings are out of alignment. I personally have never found any scope rings that where properly aligned right out of the box. Some where close but once the alignment bars where clamped in the misalignment became apparent. I use the (deleted the company name. I no longer endorse that company.) Scope ring misalignment is the biggest cause for scopes not tracking properly. Some of you are going to ask what scope tracking is. To check scope tracking you have to have the scope crosshairs center on and grid. Now with the rifle clamped down so that it will not move. turn the elevation knob 4 clicks up. Now turn the windage knob 4 clicks right. Now the elevation 8 clicks down. Now the windage 8 clicks left. Now the elevation 8 clicks up. Now 4 clicks right and finally 4 clicks down. Are the crosshairs back to the center of the grid? If not your scope is not tracking properly. 9 times of of 10 the scope is blamed and is given a bad reputation. When in fact it is caused by misalignment of the rings. This misalignment causes the scope tube to bind because of the stress placed on it. This in many cases causes permanent damage to the scope tube. This damage can be so slight as not to be seen, yet it is severe enough to cause not only tracking problems but parallax problems as well. This applies to all scopes from the no-name $29.95 scopes from Walmart to the $3000.00+ March scopes. Proper alignment is just as important to shooting as the powder change in your reloads. Another important step in mounting a scope is to insure that the scope rings are tightened equally and not over torqued.
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bob
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I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
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Post by bob on Nov 16, 2014 1:13:43 GMT -5
Dan, I wish you had mentioned the Kokopelli tool a few years ago,you would have saved me some money. I had my pointed tool "squared" on the other end for just that reason. I had a set of rings that aligned "perfectly" but when I put my 1" tube in them they left marks in the ink indicating poor alignment the "squared" ends showed the problem. I still don't understand the term bedding as used here.
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et1
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Posts: 120
Location: Ontario Canada
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Post by et1 on Nov 16, 2014 6:19:39 GMT -5
Bob Think of bedding a rifle for a mated fit to the stock. In this case you’re bedding the scope mounts for an exact mated fit to the rifle and if using a 2-piece mount this is done also to position and align the rings for an exact scope fit. As Dan pointed out scope tube stress (bend) can cause the scope to bind when adjusted. How often have you seen people tap their scope after adjustment or fire a few settling shots. This normally is not because of scope quality but stress put on the scope tube. Now if you have a heavy recoiling rifle a stressed scope may have a short life. This should not be confused with bedding the rings which is another possible topic. www.varminthunters.com/tech/scopebedding.htmlwww.murphyprecision.com/Page/Scope_Base_BeddingThere is more info on the net with pictures if you want to more closely examine what is being talked about. Ed
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bob
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I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
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Post by bob on Nov 16, 2014 10:55:15 GMT -5
Thanks Ed, Now I know what to call what I have done for the past few years. In the previous post I mentioned alignment which was both horizontal and vertical. Also that article is very good. On the other side of the coin,I have several scopes which I mounted in the "dark ages" that I'm leaving as is because they have served me well for many years and I'm afraid to find out they're not correctly mounted. The reason I started is I swapped scopes between rifles and I found there was not enough vertical adjustment, the mounts were off by about 0.005" at least that is the value off shim I used. I then lapped the rings a little,per Leupold.
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Post by krwada on Nov 16, 2014 14:29:48 GMT -5
I wish I had known about the Kokopelli system. I have the Sinclair optics mounting kit with lapping bars for both 1" and 30mm.
I have never been very happy with the pointy tip alignment thing!
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Nov 16, 2014 15:51:44 GMT -5
I knew about scope ring alignment but had never heard of bedding the scope mounts. I just learned something new thanks guys another new research project.
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dangun
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I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Nov 16, 2014 22:49:12 GMT -5
As if you, me, us weren't already saddled with numerous variables in our hobby Ed has pointed out some more. Good topic Ed..
The pointy type ring alignment tools really don't tell you much about your ring alignment. They certainly don't help you get them parallel. Those with squared ends are by far the easiest to use and give you an accurate picture of the ring alignment. However no alignment is any good if the foundation or in this case if the mount is wacked. If you have ever installed a scope mount and then been able to see space or light between the action and the bottom of the mount it needs to be bedded. Many off the shelf scope mounts aren't even cut with the same radius as the action they are mounted on. This is at least as bad as having space between the aft side of a recoil lug and the stock. If there is space then it can't do it's job. This is where a good mount bedding job comes in to save you scope.
Once you have a solid base and your rings are aligned it can also be used a used scope inspection tool. Simply remove your scope and lay a scope being offered for sale into the rings. If the scope tube lays into the ring with no kick up on the aft or fwd side of the rings then at least you know that the tube is straight. Beware 7 out of every 10 used scopes I wanted to buy was bent. Ed mention tapping on scopes or settling shots after a scope adjustment. Good scopes/ those that are mounted correctly don't need this. High price does not make a good scope. I have a cheap Barska that tracks better than one of my March scopes. It makes me cringe when I see people tapping on the turrets. That is a sign of either a poorly mounted scope or a malfunctioning one.
While most scopes are relatively rugged they are still a precision instrument and should be treated as such. I have 3 March scopes each costing over $2500.00 dollars but believe it or not every competition rifle I have (5) have the Weaver T-36 fine crosshair no dot scopes mounted on them. I was very disappointed in those scopes for the money I spent. It's just my opinion but the March scopes are way overrated that goes for Nightforce and many Leupold scopes. That statement will probably raise a few eyebrows!
Bottom line... Why spend all that time at the bench trying to mash together the perfect load if the gun your going to shoot them in is not setup correctly? It just doesn't make good walking around sense to work so hard on one thing if everything else is left to chance.
Happy shooting fellas!
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et1
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Posts: 120
Location: Ontario Canada
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Post by et1 on Nov 17, 2014 7:11:31 GMT -5
Dangun
I agree if your optics are not properly installed you will never know the true potential of a firearm. About 2-years ago I came across scope mount bedding but have yet to employ it as I don’t have a need just yet. Like Bob I have a rifle at least 25+yrs old with a Nikko Sterling scope that shoots exceptionally well and won’t alter a thing on it. Now that I’m aware of this mount alignment correction I’m ready if the need arises.
Today’s components are mass produced with almost sloppy tolerances IMO and one has to be careful with installation. That brings up another point about scope installation. There are many that believe it’s just a simple operation that anyone can do and have seen some beauties. One fellow had a front mount riding on top of a recoil lug and the gap underneath stood out like a sore thumb. I don’t have to tell you what his initial groups looked like. Corrected that problem and you’d swear it wasn’t the same rifle previously shot.
I’m foremost a hunter that demands accuracy to quickly dispatch my quarry. Four things I focus on with a rifle is proper stock to receiver fit, stock to shooter fit, developed reload and reasonable quality optics properly installed. The last important thing that needs to be tuned is the shooter.
Thanks for your enlightening commentary and thoughts on the subject.
Ed
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Post by ed alger on Nov 18, 2014 17:53:29 GMT -5
My bad, I mistook the Sinclair kit for the Kokopelli tools? 749-011-661WB Sinclair Scope Installation Kit.
It's interesting that MidwayUSA has discontinued the Kokopelli Scope Ring Alignment Tool 1"? Perhaps something else is coming down?
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dangun
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I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Nov 18, 2014 22:22:14 GMT -5
Ed, There maybe something else coming but I imagine the discontinuance is due in part to availability. I have seen guys make knock offs of that kit from aluminum bar stock.
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dangun
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I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Nov 19, 2014 9:37:50 GMT -5
I wish I had $5.00 for every guy that I helped get his scope mounted in those plastic insert scope rings.
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7mmmountaineer
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Time to face it I am a workaholic............
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Post by 7mmmountaineer on Jan 4, 2015 0:44:45 GMT -5
Ok I hope his reply/question posts. How exactly do you bed a one piece scope EGW scope rail on a bolt gun. The one kind of helpful video I found on you tube uses JB Weld? I have a rifle off at Hart being done and just ordered the one piece 0 MOA rail from EGW along with their 1" rings.
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