bob
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I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457 
Location: Northern California
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Post by bob on Dec 18, 2014 0:18:19 GMT -5
My daughter lives in Missouri and works in and around Columbia. She was just here for a few days and asked to shoot, which of course we did. I was a bit surprised to find out that both she and her husband want her to get a hand gun and permit to carry, this is in addition to an 18" barreled shot gun for the house. The shot gun will probably be a 20 ga. although she is capable with the 12 ga. She fired my Ruger Single Six .22 mag., my1911 Colt .45 acp, my S&W .45 Colt and my 9mm S&W Mod.59 she handled all three but liked the 9mm the most. I like the 1911 in 9 mm because of the safety features when locked and loaded. What are your recommendations ?
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Post by hacker54 on Dec 18, 2014 10:40:02 GMT -5
Bob,
My suggestion would be for her to find a handgun that sits good in her hands. I have over the years that saw certain handguns that I wanted but did not buy them because they did not sit right in my hands. Changing the grips on certain handguns helps also. She will become more proficient with a gun that sits good in her hands as far as caliber goes find one that she can shoot well and go from there.
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gws
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Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
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Post by gws on Dec 18, 2014 20:08:05 GMT -5
I have relatively small hands. My absolute favorite pistol is Ruger's SR9 or SR40....either one. Fit and accuracy is absolutely perfect. Even the double stack mag fits small hands. Go handle one...you'll see what I mean. Seems to me they just might fit her the same way. They use a double coil spring too which makes recoil feel less than a typical 1911. I have a Kimber stainless target II. The Ruger SR40 is just as accurate.
Anyway, that's a possibility.
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poohzilla
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Give me a place to stand and a long-enough lever, and I will invariably break the lever.
Posts: 1,050
Location: New Hamster
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Post by poohzilla on Dec 18, 2014 21:22:09 GMT -5
Ah, so many guns, so little time... Other than suggesting the wonderfully simple and elegant revolver (pardon me while I duck the rotten tomatoes !) there really are a lot of very cool 9mm's around these days. The SR9 series seems pretty good. I guess the one suggestion I'd make is that she should try them, and pick them herself. A gun, particularly a defensive handgun, is a pretty personal thing. Offer advice and don't let some gun store commando bamboozle her, but let her decide. Chances are, she'll be happier, and if it's a clinker, at least it's not your fault !! The search is a good deal of the fun.
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Post by hacker54 on Dec 19, 2014 0:28:23 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with a revolver. I own and shoot both revolver and semi. As I stated before as long as it fells right in her hand and she likes it. Then the choice of caliber should be one she can handle well.
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bob
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I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
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Post by bob on Dec 19, 2014 12:01:03 GMT -5
Thank you all for your wisdom, I did tell my daughter and her husband they should handle as many guns as they can before making a decision. The decision should be based on what is comfortable and fun to shoot. I include fun because that will encourage practice! As I said above, I lean towards a 1911 type as it has multiple safeties in the locked and loaded condition and I am not that familiar with the striker (hammerless) semis. Somewhat jokingly my daughter said she wanted my S&W model 25 8-3/8" .45 for CCW, now that would be interesting.
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dangun
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I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Dec 19, 2014 21:29:27 GMT -5
Well it is absolutely has to be reliable and simple to use, Glock is the way to go. 1911 type pistols even in experienced hands have proven to be a least favorite self defense handgun. Why? Because of all those safeties. Even in experienced hands there are way to many things to remember to do before you get that first shot off. In inexperienced hands they can be a death sentence for the person attempting to protect themselves. This isn't just me talking, this gets proven in IDPA matches every weekend all over the country. S&W M&Ps and Glocks are 10 times more reliable and nothing to remember except point and shoot. Another point I would like to make is during IDPA match the stress level is moderate, because it is a competition. Experienced shooters don't always and in fact rarely shoot clean stages. The stress level in a real life or death situation is 300% higher than that of a club level competition. So with that in mind one must be realistic about what they want or should carry. Ammo is 6 rounds going to be enough? How about 8+1? Probably not! Then there is size. I have seen many big people claim to carry full size 1911's concealed. None have done it successfully.I always spot those carrying a 1911. Drawing a full size 1911 and bringing it to bear is something that takes many years practice even for those that have many many hours of range time.
They is also the variable that Gary mentioned. If it don't fit don't carry it. Caliber doesn't matter much because recoil control can be learned and usually rather quickly. A properly fitted handgun is the foundation to becoming proficient with it. I know this will probably upset a few but a wheel gun is the absolute worst self protection gun for an in-experienced shooter. I made Master class in 2 years shooting a Glock. I have yet to make Master class with a wheel gun and I have been trying for 4 years.
These opinions are based on my personal experiences and are just that, opinions. Either way they decide to go I'm sure they will choose what works for them. Also I would suggest that they should consider some training.
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bob
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I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
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Post by bob on Dec 20, 2014 0:30:15 GMT -5
Dan, Thanks for your input,it is not far from my feelings, as I noted before comfort and fun,I realize fun may seem inappropriate but it will promote practice. They can shoot off their deck at home. As for the type of pistol whether Glock or Smith & Wesson I have little experience with these which is one of the reasons for the post. By the way a revolver is by no means a serious contender or even an option.
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Post by erjdriver on Dec 20, 2014 10:11:29 GMT -5
Before they make a decision, make sure they try a Smith & Wesson M&P Shield in whatever flavor caliber they want. Fits hand well and is easy/comfortable to carry IWB.
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SnapShot
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Jeep & Mocha "Remembering Patches, always"
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Location: Finally free from the Republic of Kalifornia!
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Post by SnapShot on Dec 20, 2014 10:28:35 GMT -5
For what it's worth we went through handguns for the family last summer. My carry choice is the M&P 9 and my son is a Ruger SR9 fan. When we bought pistols for our wives we went with the S&W Shield and the Ruger LC9 respectively. The idea being smaller versions of what we prefer. As it turned out, the ladies found the smaller hand guns more difficult manipulating the slides. This is due to the spring tension in both cases. They both choose our guns to their new ones. They can handle them much easier and have become very proficient and comfortable with them. The M&P 9 and SR 9 are larger and that is a consideration when carrying but the ease of handling and confidence in being able to deploy when needed was a good trade-off. Our lesson here was we did not arrange to have the ladies shoot the new smaller guns before we bought them. The smaller guns now reside in the gun safe most of the time and the ladies have new handguns just like ours.
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gws
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Location: NW New Mexico
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Post by gws on Dec 20, 2014 11:22:54 GMT -5
About the concealability: The Ruger SR9 also comes in a SR9c......the "c" stands for compact. Probably my next pistol, as I only have one SR the 40 regular size. (which I love.......less recoil than my friend's Glock 9mm!??)  Robert Fargo did a pretty good review of the compact version HERE. Lots of videos as well. Oh, btw, the SR's have a regular safety in the normal 19ll position as well as a Glock-style trigger safety. Somes love it, somes think the trigger one ought to be enough. If you're used to 19ll's you'll feel right at home. I don't disagree with Dan about much, but here I do. Glocks stink for people with small hands. If it don't fit it isn't good to carry. As for the 19ll-style safety, you have the choice with the SR. Use it or don't. The Glock-style trigger safety is always there. SR's are just as reliable, and for me at least easier to shoot. Different strokes for different folks I guess.  |
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mule
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Retired. Sales
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Post by mule on Dec 20, 2014 12:31:31 GMT -5
The Ruger LCP and Kel-Tek P3AT, and similar .380 ACP pistols are enticing for their light weight and concealability. They easily slip into a pocket or purse. However, because of the light weight, recoil is stout. My P3AT is not fun to shoot. I will not spend an afternoon plinking with it. I suggest avoiding these guns as a first carry gun.
After the shooters have gained knowledge and skill, they may decide on a smaller gun, taking into consideration there are limitations as well as benefits.
The Free State of Missouri is a good place to live.
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poohzilla
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Give me a place to stand and a long-enough lever, and I will invariably break the lever.
Posts: 1,050
Location: New Hamster
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Post by poohzilla on Dec 20, 2014 16:34:26 GMT -5
Dan raises one excellent point, and that is training. Some trainers have stuff available to try-a good way to help figure out what they want.
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gws
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Location: NW New Mexico
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Post by gws on Dec 20, 2014 23:38:45 GMT -5
Actually he raises several excellent points. And I do mostly agree. It's just that Glocks don't work for me. I can't comment on S&W's having never done more that hold one. The Ruger just fits best for me. The SR40 carries 15+1 and the SR9 carries 17+1. That's a little more Glock-like only it's done inside a pistol handle that feels like a single stack. Small hand friendly was my point, and it helps that I my SR .40 won't skip a beat, no matter what I feed it. Now, I'm a dyed in the wool 1911 lover of 40 years.....but the 8+1 round mag of my Kimber is a bit old fashioned. I just received my American Rifleman Magazine today, and I always read the armed citizen. Reading the first story, a 67 year old put two armed home invaders in the hospital and killed a third while defending his granddaughter! Unfortunately he received multiple gunshot wounds himself and was was hospitalized in critical condition. I don't know what anyone in the story carried, but you don't want to be under-gunned. Defending against three guys with modern 9mms loaded with 16 to 19 rounds is not easily done with a 1911 holding 7 or 8+1, unless you can dispatch them with the first 3 .45ACP rounds. Adrenaline-charged defenders, as Dan pointed out, are not usually at their best. In the NRA story, I'm thinking there was a lot of shooting going on, and multiple hits didn't instantly drop and incapacitate anyone....including the one with fatal wounds. The defender made it to the hospital as did 2 out of 3 attackers. Point is ... NO normally conceal-carried handgun is in reality a fight stopper in the Hollywood sense unless you are flat lucky. Well maybe a 44 mag but who really carries and shoots those monsters for S.D. (backup sidearm for hunters of Grizzlies excepted.  ) So magazine capacity matters....even if you can shoot well. I feel for Kalifornians and others who are limited to 10. I agree with Mule too. I have shot a Ruger LCP and a KelTec. Besides being difficult/uncomfortable guns to shoot (comparatively) both have poor triggers. |
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dangun
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I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Dec 24, 2014 1:01:17 GMT -5
I didn't mention Rugers because I don't see many of them in IDPA matches. An IDPA match is a very good proving ground for handguns. So if they aren't been used at these matches then I don't give them much consideration. That isn't to say that they aren't being used elsewhere. KELTEC not on a bet! They are a local company and I shoot with several of the guys that work at Keltec. Funny they don't even carry them or at least I have seen them do so. When it boils down to it the best self defense gun is the one you are carrying when you need it. If nothing else you have something you can pistol whip them with or throw at them.
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gws
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Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
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Post by gws on Dec 24, 2014 4:01:01 GMT -5
The Ruger SR's are relatively new designs....to dismiss them off hand because they don't match the current popularity of the long entrenched Glocks and S&W's favored by a large contingent of IDPA shooters is a bit limited in vision. What percent of Americans who carry defensively compete in IDPA? 10%? The SR's do however pass IDPA needs of reliability for those who use them. Yes, there are those who use them and the number is growing. blog.cheaperthandirt.com/the-ruger-sr9c-in-action/For people with small hands who wish to carry they are a Godsend, especially the SR9c.
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dangun
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I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Dec 24, 2014 17:48:52 GMT -5
GWS, yes it's probably even less more like 6 or even 8% and the total that train in any capacity is maybe 10%. Limited vision maybe oh and the Ruger SR is not a new design. It is an almost identical copy of the Glock. Internally that is. Small hands? Glock and S&W have made compact versions for many years. I wasn't intending to dismiss them as you say but I won't put my life on the line with a copied design until I know they didn't take any short cuts.
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gws
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Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
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Post by gws on Dec 26, 2014 2:03:46 GMT -5
Slight miscommunication, sorry, my bad. Let me reword for clarification. For people with small hands Ruger SR's are a Godsend. For them (small handers) who also wish to carry, the SR9c (compact version) is even better.
Yes I know Glock has made compacts for years, but though they have shorter barrels and grips, they still have the same fat profile that I and many others have a hard time getting a good comfortable grip around for good control. If you find them comfortable then you have bigger hands than I do.
The internals are similar as are most strikers, but if the SR's were identical copies, I wouldn't own a Ruger SR either. They wouldn't fit me.
As far as short cuts ....you don't think Glock's unsupported chamber is a short cut, I guess...yeah I know that design was for more reliability with commercial ammo, and police don't use reloads. They throw their "Glocked" brass away for reloaders to pick up.
I've heard that Glock has newer models designed with better support. Gee, maybe they copied the SR's or S&W's on that. I wonder if any of these newer models also copied the SR line's slimmer profile? That'd be nice for us smaller handed folks. I'd be interested in one.
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Post by hacker54 on Dec 26, 2014 11:27:31 GMT -5
Greg,
The newer Gen 4 Glock's do have a supported chamber now. My son-in-law has a Gen 4 in the Model 17 or 19 in a 9mm. When he got this pistol he ask me about reloading for it. First this I did was have him remove the barrel to check with a round to see that the chamber was supported.
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Post by isparky44 on Dec 26, 2014 22:33:40 GMT -5
Ruger LC9s with laser is my daily carry in a Desantis Nemisis pocket holster. Stays put with my active lifestyle (towing) and draws out & up real nice even with my carhartts on. Barely know its there. Bought my first Ruger back in the Mid 80s because of hand fit/on point when drawn. I would love to carry my SR1911 but I just cant get a Holster that fits well with my work. Getting way more holsters & carry rigs than guns recently, soon I will find that "just right" fit. |
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dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Dec 29, 2014 8:23:56 GMT -5
Greg,
I don't have anything against the SR series Rugers, I just haven't seen anyone using them. I went back 4 years for the IDPA entries at our club. No one in that time has entered using and SR. In fact the only Ruger used was a revolver and that was 3 years ago. I think Ruger introduced the SR9 in 2007 I wonder way they haven't made it into the hands of shooters around here? Anyway I did do some research and you are correct they are being used in most other areas and are reliable. I'm glad you found something that fits and work for you.
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gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
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Post by gws on Dec 29, 2014 11:52:46 GMT -5
That's it, Dan. It's all about fit and reliability. They are both necessary. Reliability is an obvious given, but then what fits me may not fit you, or Bob, or Bob's daughter. I think we all agree. 3 years ago my daughter took a "Women Against Crime" class put on the Sheriff's office. (offered every year by both our city police dept. and the County Sheriff's office.) She dropped my my house after a hand's on shooting session... in tears. Said she didn't think she could handle the "big guns". (she did not own one at the time.) I asked her what they were letting her shoot. It was a Glock 9mm (don't know the model). I asked her what was wrong. She said she didn't feel in control and the muzzle flip started to scare her. Yeah, she's not large person... it had to be the fit. Anyway, I took her to the range the next day to see if we could iron out the problems. But I didn't have a 9mm, only .45's and .40's.....one of the .40's is a Kahr CW40, but I wasn't about to have her shoot that one! It's a thinner single width mag, but it's small, light, and "mean" on muzzle flip...not for beginners. So the other choice was the Ruger SR40. I warned her that being a .40 S&W, recoil might be a bit more than the 9mm, but I showed her how to grip, firm up her stance, wrists and arms, and she shot away. She was amazed and pleased. Less recoil than the 9mm she shot at the class (factory, not reloads) and since it fit her small hand better she didn't feel out of control. It didn't scare her. She was then able to finish the class, and did it with a much better outlook & attitude. Now I don't know if recoil was actually less....but I do know it can feel less with the right fit. The instructor may have with good intentions given my daughter a compact Glock to shoot being she is small handed. While it may appear to fit better, being smaller & lighter....it most likely produced more recoil than the regular sized Glock. Add to that the inability to get her hand around the wide grip.......tears..... Don't anyone misconstrue this post as anti-Glock. It isn't....just an illustration on how important I think fit is.
I don't know why you don't see more SR's in your area either. Compared to Glock's long time entrenchment in IDPS it is a new design. After Rugers unfortunate first attempts (fat, heavy & ugly) at Semi-Autos, many probably had reservations on giving them a second chance. Then also the adage "if it ain't broke leave it alone" may account for no one using them in your area. I also believe if you're new, it's best to follow the successful leaders, equipment-wise, if you can......and usually those leaders are at the top because of experience and length of time in the sport. That said, if the equipment doesn't fit....
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) So magazine capacity matters....even if you can shoot well. I feel for Kalifornians and others who are limited to 10.
My daughter came from Missouri, my son and grand son, my wife and I had a nice dinner of grilled "porter house" pork chops, corn on the cobb, my son, G'son and I share 10/5. G'son is 4 minutes early though @ 10/4.
Pooh I hope you find to right house . 
