dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Jun 19, 2014 21:57:21 GMT -5
Way back when people realized that cops are too heavy to carry and that they really can't protect you, people started to remember that they have to protect themselves. Cops are pretty good at solving crimes but in most cases they show up after the fact. That wasn't meant to take anything away from them. They do put their lives on the line everyday. The point is and we all know it, is that YOU are responsible for you own safety and for those that depend on you. I have heard the argument that no natter how much you train, if and when the day comes that you actually have to defend yourself you may freeze up. Maybe that's true in a few cases but I counter with facts not maybe's. Training builds muscle memory and auto reaction reflex. Nothing prepares you for self defense better than training. I read an article a couple of years ago that was packed full of statistics. I don't remember the numbers but of all the cop encounters where there was a sudden exchange of gun fire and no one was hit, (you can find many videos of this on youtube) the majority of the cops only shot their sidearm once a year for qualification. Many of those barely qualified. Yet the majority of armed citizens that carried permitted firearms that where involved in life or death sudden exchanges of gun fire hit their targets. When surveyed all responded that they practiced with their carry guns at least 4 times a year. Many responded that they practice or compete 8 or more times a year times a year. Now with that in mind who is more qualified to protect themselves? I know allot of people that just don't have time to go to the range and practice. or when they do the range is packed or their are distractions that prevent them from perfect practice. Have you heard that term before? It goes something like this. Practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes practice perfect. Continuing to practice a bad habit such as bad stance, grip, sight picture or any number of things will only make you good at bad habits. That maybe enough to save your life or the life or a love one but remember I said I deal in facts not maybe's? So why risk it. I know you are ready for me to get to the point. Of those people that don't have time to go to the range, some have actually figured out that they can practice at home. Yep at home... Of course they hopefully use guns that aren't loaded and yes they dry fire and yes it helps. But nothing beats live fire training.. or.. maybe there is. There is one of those maybe's again. Ok fact there are devices out there that allow you to either convert and existing handgun for home practice and there are standalone devices. One in particular is called a SIRT. Remember Mike Hughes from season 3 Top Gun? He is the inventor and founder of Nextlevel Training nextleveltraining.com/content/sirt-specifications check it out if your interested. I don't make a dime or receive anything from anybody by telling you about this product. (Ken you don't have to run out and buy one) So why do I use this instead of a real gun and dry fire practice? SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY!!! I never have to worry if I checked the chamber. The weighted mag in the SIRT make it feel like my carry gun without the danger of raking a live round in the chamber. I don't have to rake the slide everytime for dry fire practice and I can see if my sight picture was on target. How? Lasers and the trigger resets by itself everytime. When I set the trigger a red laser comes on, if I go ahead and pull the trigger a green laser comes on showing the POI. You can also turn the red laser off for true testing of your quick acquisition and dispatch of the target. Plus the trigger is adjustable to match the gun you carry. It even works better for those that carry a Glock because it is modeled after a Glock. The real cool part is you can practice perfect without sending hundreds of rounds down range. You might ask what fun is that? Well I think it's more fun to actually hit what I shooting at when I do send hundreds of round down range. Fun? Hell yes it's fun. I run around the house lasering light switches, nick knacks, door knobs and anything else I can find. You can also practice drawing from concealment without the worry of shooting yourself in the leg or foot. The main reason I posted this wasn't to get you to buy a SIRT. Instead it was to show you that there is a need to practice and a very safe way to do it. What more can I say.       |
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Post by hacker54 on Jun 19, 2014 22:25:25 GMT -5
Nice post Dan. I remember this from before. It is a cost effective way to practice compared to sending a lot of rounds down range.
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Post by krwada on Jun 20, 2014 1:23:24 GMT -5
I did not know such a thing existed. Usually, the prop guns I use are mockups specifically used for hand-to-hand combat.
Yes. correct practice does make perfect. There is, however, nothing better than training under the watchful eye of an instructor on an IDPA course. I did this a couple of weeks ago, and it was a real eye opener.
I need to check out the SIRT also. This looks very good.
At the very least, I can practice mag changes while out at the range with my pistol. I know they allow at least this at the range.
Now, I need to find an IDPA course here in the SF Bay Area. I am certain there is one around.
Thanks Dan;
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dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Jun 20, 2014 7:35:26 GMT -5
I did not know such a thing existed. Usually, the prop guns I use are mockups specifically used for hand-to-hand combat. Yes. correct practice does make perfect. There is, however, nothing better than training under the watchful eye of an instructor on an IDPA course. I did this a couple of weeks ago, and it was a real eye opener. I need to check out the SIRT also. This looks very good. At the very least, I can practice mag changes while out at the range with my pistol. I know they allow at least this at the range. Now, I need to find an IDPA course here in the SF Bay Area. I am certain there is one around. Thanks Dan; Ken, I disagree with the highlighted statement. I took that to mean with live ammo. Instructors at least most of us know the importance of developing muscle memory and eye hand coordination. Training with live ammo adds an element of stress to the training environment that slows down this process due to safety concerns for both the instructor and the student. Both should still be very aware of the muzzle sweeps and unsafe actions but is this way of training those unsafe actions did endanger the student or the instructor. Even more stress is added by a vocal instructor, at least in the beginning. Think about it... If I am repeatedly calling muzzle, finger/trigger, clear, cover, keep moving, reload. All of these calls are distracting to the student. A distracted, frustrated untrained student isn't someone I want to have a loaded gun. With a SIRT Type training aid the only things missing from the training exercise is the shot report and the recoil. However once the muscle memory is strongly embedded into that student the reaction from the shot report and the recoil is easily absorbed and compensated. Once the student can run through an IDPA course of fire without any safety calls then it's time to switch to live ammo. I have heard instructors say it isn't rocket science. Well they are right, it isn't rocket science but perfect practice is very complex and shouldn't be downplayed. I for got to add this company also makes an AR bolt so that you can train with your AR-15 without wasting allot of ammo. It also auto re-sets your trigger. and cost less than $150 bucks. How much time at the bench & money would that save you? |
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Post by krwada on Jun 20, 2014 8:20:24 GMT -5
I did not know such a thing existed. Usually, the prop guns I use are mockups specifically used for hand-to-hand combat. Yes. correct practice does make perfect. There is, however, nothing better than training under the watchful eye of an instructor on an IDPA course. I did this a couple of weeks ago, and it was a real eye opener. I need to check out the SIRT also. This looks very good. At the very least, I can practice mag changes while out at the range with my pistol. I know they allow at least this at the range. Now, I need to find an IDPA course here in the SF Bay Area. I am certain there is one around. Thanks Dan; Ken, I disagree with the highlighted statement. I took that to mean with live ammo. Instructors at least most of us know the importance of developing muscle memory and eye hand coordination. Training with live ammo adds an element of stress to the training environment that slows down this process due to safety concerns for both the instructor and the student. Both should still be very aware of the muzzle sweeps and unsafe actions but is this way of training those unsafe actions did endanger the student or the instructor. Even more stress is added by a vocal instructor, at least in the beginning. Think about it... If I am repeatedly calling muzzle, finger/trigger, clear, cover, keep moving, reload. All of these calls are distracting to the student. A distracted, frustrated untrained student isn't someone I want to have a loaded gun. With a SIRT Type training aid the only things missing from the training exercise is the shot report and the recoil. However once the muscle memory is strongly embedded into that student the reaction from the shot report and the recoil is easily absorbed and compensated. Once the student can run through an IDPA course of fire without any safety calls then it's time to switch to live ammo. I have heard instructors say it isn't rocket science. Well they are right, it isn't rocket science but perfect practice is very complex and shouldn't be downplayed. I for got to add this company also makes an AR bolt so that you can train with your AR-15 without wasting allot of ammo. It also auto re-sets your trigger. and cost less than $150 bucks. How much time at the bench & money would that save you? I see ... So the proper course of training is to use the SIRT device with an instructor present? Then switch to live fire? I think I need to find an instructor. When I did my very first IDPA style think in OK ... there was an instructor present. However, he did not talk to me until before I ran the course, and after. During the course, he just watched while I did the live fire. We did fire a lot of rounds however. We discussed a lot of things. Stance, footwork, sight/body alignment, safety. We also, in a group class, went over draw, malfunctions, mag changes. It was like an introductory class for me. There were a huge ton of things I did not know how to do. |
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dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Jun 20, 2014 9:02:05 GMT -5
Ok I was under the impression that is was an IDPA training class and not a match. I do encourage everyone to shoot in matches. However this is were you can develop bad habits unless someone is watching an can debrief you on your mistakes. The device doesn't have to be a SIRT brand it is just the one I like to use and train with. Even if you don't buy a Sirt training device they have some awesome videos on training. These will help you to train correctly. The nice thing about having something to train with is you don't have to go to the range to train or wait for the next match. I even saw a used SIRT pistol on ebay that sold for 124 dollars. You could burn up 124 dollars in ammo and not learn a thing. Also steel matches are a good way to build speed and accuracy but yo can practice those with a SIRT and some paper plates on the wall. Training doesn't have to be expensive.
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Post by krwada on Jun 20, 2014 10:21:53 GMT -5
Ok I was under the impression that is was an IDPA training class and not a match. I do encourage everyone to shoot in matches. However this is were you can develop bad habits unless someone is watching an can debrief you on your mistakes. The device doesn't have to be a SIRT brand it is just the one I like to use and train with. Even if you don't buy a Sirt training device they have some awesome videos on training. These will help you to train correctly. The nice thing about having something to train with is you don't have to go to the range to train or wait for the next match. I even saw a used SIRT pistol on ebay that sold for 124 dollars. You could burn up 124 dollars in ammo and not learn a thing. Also steel matches are a good way to build speed and accuracy but yo can practice those with a SIRT and some paper plates on the wall. Training doesn't have to be expensive. Hello Dan; Yes; I believe what I did in OK was a match. Basically, the fellow who ran it told me that he was setting up a very close approximation to what they do in the real IDPA matches. Another question ... Are there IDPA classes? I mean instruction where I can use a SIRT type device and have an instructor walk me through the proper basics of handling, sight alignment, safety and action? If so, then this is what I would like to do. It also looks like anyone, with any level of experience, (including complete noobs like me), are welcome to an IDPA match. This is what I am hearing from both you and the fellow who ran the IDPA-style shooting event that I went to. I am very concerned on developing bad habits from the get-go on this. However, the first time I tried the IDPA thing ... it was a lot of fun! And also ... not detracting from law enforcement ... You are quite correct. The police agencies are very good at being historical, (solving crimes) agency. The Liberal notion that law enforcement should be more pro-active goes completely counter to our Constitutional rights ... but now ... I am digressing. Ken |
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dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Jun 20, 2014 10:28:53 GMT -5
Ken, I don't know about where you are but here the day before a match after setup. Many of the experienced shooters work with the new guy and gals that show up. There is no formal IDPA classes that I know of but most of the guys that are willing to do this are instructor. They will allow live fire or SIRT practice either way. They love the SIRT practice.
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Post by krwada on Jun 20, 2014 10:31:40 GMT -5
Ken, I don't know about where you are but here the day before a match after setup. Many of the experienced shooters work with the new guy and gals that show up. There is no formal IDPA classes that I know of but most of the guys that are willing to do this are instructor. They will allow live fire or SIRT practice either way. They love the SIRT practice. OK ... got it ... I think the best thing for me to do is to find out where the IDPA thing is happening locally, and go from there. Thanks Dan! Ken |
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dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Jun 20, 2014 15:53:31 GMT -5
Paul,
Thanks for the idea. I trust that someone in your position of having been shooted in the private parts as you say, would be able to devise a training program that would prevent such and occurrence in the future. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Post by isparky44 on Jun 20, 2014 22:53:45 GMT -5
I have been wanting to get more professional training as well simply because of that fact that I shoot far too often alone, therefore I have nobody to correct me when I foul up safety wise, one of the pitfalls of having my own range right out back. I took my CPL class last year and I'm ashamed to admit it but the instructor yelled at me more than anyone else in the group. I brought it on myself though, prior to the class I expressed my concerns about shooting alone, and asked him to be tough on me, in the safety department. He didn't let me down lets put it that way. I work with law enforcement often as part of my towing business, and have invited several of the officers/deputies over just for the purpose of gathering skills and discipline, safety wise, as well as tactical. They don't seem too keen on me showing up as an observer at the county range during LE training and qualifying, I'm told its Insurance regulations. They probably don't want to share too much of their tactical information either. I am working on getting a day where I can spend some quality time and money on some advanced classes, with my CPL instructor, he is very well versed on all the safety and self defense categories I am looking to improve on. Practice, practice, practice, train, train, train! On a side note, too funny Dan!
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dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Jun 21, 2014 8:53:36 GMT -5
isparky44, I think you would benefit from watching the training videos on nextleveltraining.com/mikehughesblog. Of course having an instructor teaching you safety such as muzzle and trigger finger awareness and building muscle memory is an awesome way to start but it can be done without someone being around. One way is to set up a camera a video yourself. If you don't know what to look for then send the video to someone that does. In a situation like yours, if I were you I would watch all the training videos you can find. Then video yourself and compare what you are doing to the videos. I realize that this isn't the most ideal way to train but it is better than wondering if your doing it right. Cop shops are funny in that they are afraid that their tactics will become known to the public and could easily be countered. That is the main reason they don't want you to watch. I hate to let the cat out of the bag but in many cases I've seen they seem to run a play book type of training. In Florida and probably many other states there are clubs that hold tactical matches. I have seen cops come to watch our matches and have even heard a few say that what we are doing isn't legal. No one has arrested any of us. What an elitist attitude! What they fail to realise is that the tactical training we do teaches us that every situation is fluid and ever changing. They train to a play book like I mentioned above and that in many cases leaves them stuck an scratching their heads wondering how to proceed. Where they train to breech a door, we train to create our own. As far as watching the qualify? They may simply not want you to know how bad they are. Now that doesn't mean they are all bad but I've seen a few that I wouldn't want as my partner. Oh and yes too funny! |
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Post by ed alger on Jun 24, 2014 9:28:53 GMT -5
Dan, I'm sure there is not an SIRT model which fits all. However, perhaps you might indicate which model you prefer and why? There is a pretty wide range in cost.
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dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Jun 24, 2014 10:43:13 GMT -5
Ed, When I got mine there were only 2 choices. The Instructor Pro and the student models. There still seems to be only 2 types but in various colors. I would make sure that you get either a performer or a pro with green and red lasers for outdoor use. The out door models have much brighter lasers and can be used almost anywhere indoor or out. The indoor models are ok if you never plan to practice outdoors. The red/red lasers aren't bright enough to show up more than a few feet away. Pro or Performer RG, UG, GG, or PG will work great in all training environments. The xR models are for indoor training. I alos suggest that anyone considering using a SIRT for training read the manual at the link posted here. SIRT Manual |
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Post by ed alger on Jun 24, 2014 12:43:17 GMT -5
Is this for those shooters bored of dry firing? LaserLyte |
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dangun
Member
I love the smell of burnt gun powder.
Posts: 517
Location: SW Florida
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Post by dangun on Jun 24, 2014 12:57:29 GMT -5
Those look like fun but I would rather they make a noise when hit. That way you wouldn't have to run around setting them back up. Maybe they could be modified.
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Post by isparky44 on Jun 25, 2014 22:12:36 GMT -5
Wow! I like it! I am too tired tonight, started @ 5:30 AM, but will certainly spend some time there tomorrow! Thanks Dan!!!!  |
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My daughter came from Missouri, my son and grand son, my wife and I had a nice dinner of grilled "porter house" pork chops, corn on the cobb, my son, G'son and I share 10/5. G'son is 4 minutes early though @ 10/4.
Pooh I hope you find to right house . 
