gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on May 15, 2019 21:27:59 GMT -5
New to me at least........
Federal Hydra-shoks are now being sold as Components for reloaders!
Part No. / Description / MSRP
PB38HS129 / 357 cal. 129-grain, 100-count / $30.95 PB9HS124 / 355 cal. 124-grain, 100-count / $30.95 PB9HS147 / 355 cal. 147-grain, 100-count / $30.95 PB357HS158 / 357 cal. 158-grain, 100-count / $31.95 PB40HS165 / 400 cal. 165-grain, 50-count / $16.95 PB40HS180 / 400 cal. 180-grain, 50-count / $16.95 PB45HS185 / 451 cal. 185-grain, 50-count / $18.95 PB45HS230 / 451 cal. 230-grain, 50-count / $18.95 |
|
SnapShot
Member
Jeep & Mocha "Remembering Patches, always"
Posts: 699 
Location: Finally free from the Republic of Kalifornia!
|
Post by SnapShot on May 16, 2019 10:34:07 GMT -5
The Hydro-Shock Self Defense ammo has been around for some time but I was not aware of the components being available for reloading. I thought about ordering some after reading your post. However, I don’t reload my CCW or Home Defense ammunition and the cost of these are too high (for me) to use in training/practice.
This all comes from my legal advisors and all my training. I “have been advised” by legal counsel over the years that in the event that I was ever involved in any shooting it would be best if the ammo was a factory manufactured product. The idea being that some twisted attorney could not use the fact that I made my own ammunition as a sign that I was creating something special to wound, harm or kill someone. As if I had to make something “more damaging or deadly” than what was marketed.
I have never subscribed to this concept but I do pay my lawyer to keep me and my business out of trouble and there is a train of thought that could support the whole twisted idea. So; I always load and carry factory ammunition in my Home Defense and CCW guns.
I know I’ve gotten off the subject a bit but I was wondering if any of you have adopted this same approach or have thoughts on the subject of hand-loading Defensive Ammo.
|
|
bob
Member
I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
|
Post by bob on May 16, 2019 11:40:11 GMT -5
GW, thanks for the information, good to know about stuff off my beaten track. Jumping ship to Larry's comments, I use factory nasties in my 9mm and .45 ACP, home made nasties in my revolvers and hope they have terminal effect. I figure that I will probably be sued by the "poor widow or mother of the sterling young man" anyway.  |
|
|
|
Post by hacker54 on May 16, 2019 18:21:35 GMT -5
Yes Hydra-Shok has been around for several years. The recent release for reloading is of their new redesigned bullets that one can now buy the same that is loaded in Federal's ammo. Now for Larry's comment from legal council if you look at all the bullet manufactures use of their bullets in handgun you'll see according to their make up the following "Target, Plinking, Hunting, and Defense. One can buy re-manufactured ammo or one can get a Class 6 FFL and you be come a licensed manufaturer. Bob is on point either way you'll end up in court.
|
|
gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on May 16, 2019 18:34:24 GMT -5
I know there's an ongoing debate on using handloads for self defense. I'm on the side that believes that no one has ever successfully prosecuted a person using a firearm in self defense, based on reloaded ammo. Whether it was really self defense is another thing.....and that's where we all have reason to worry, whatever ammo we have. And anyone can sue you ...... anytime for anything......just ask "poor" O.J.  That said, I'd like to see someone prove a reloading of Federal Hydrashoks......using Federal Hydrashok brass and bullets, and Federal primers of the same color was reloads anyway......unless you admit to it. I would admit to using Hydrashoks, period. Nothing but the truth. And that said, I'd rather have to go to jail than have a dead wife, dead family, dead friends......dead me......or anyone for that matter who didn't deserve a killers bullet, knife, or what ever. I could sleep with that.....letting an innocent die when I could've helped is another thing.
I never pointed a gun at a human before......hope to never have need for doing so. I think it's most important to be sure at all times where your firearm is pointed and what or who is or could be downrange.
|
|
|
|
Post by hacker54 on May 16, 2019 20:11:05 GMT -5
Well said Greg.
|
|
SnapShot
Member
Jeep & Mocha "Remembering Patches, always"
Posts: 699
Location: Finally free from the Republic of Kalifornia!
|
Post by SnapShot on May 17, 2019 11:15:05 GMT -5
Interesting comments . . . I love this group!
I guess my bottom line is I load all my CCW and Home Defense guns with Factory Loads; intended for use as Greg said above.
However I use much less expensive projectiles in my training and plinking with the exception of rifle target loads.
So . . . I listen to the lawyers but I'm thrifty (read cheap).
|
|
gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on May 17, 2019 19:58:08 GMT -5
I was told by a famous gun guru that you practice with what you intend to defend yourself with. (not personally told mind you, I read it in a gun mag many years ago)......I think they called him the Colonel?  But I hear you.....I'm as cheap as anyone.
I just bought two boxes of personal defense ammo before my trip to Texas, and I about threw up! Practice with those? I hear ya even more! However..buying Hydra-shok bullets by the hundred for even practice makes a lot of sense. Borrow a chronograph, measure velocity of the factory H.S.'s (wouldn't that be worth shooting a few pieces of gold?). Then with that info, load a few hundred and practice with what you carry. And if you run out.....load your matched reloads for carry until you buy some more......if you want.
Another hint.....pull a factory round and check the powder........bet dollars to donuts that you can match the look of the factory powder too.....I could be wrong, but I bet even proprietary factory powder looks real close to what at least one of the many canister powders looks like.
|
|
poohzilla
Member
Give me a place to stand and a long-enough lever, and I will invariably break the lever.
Posts: 1,050
Location: New Hamster
|
Post by poohzilla on May 18, 2019 15:22:48 GMT -5
Hi gang- I advise clients against the use of handloads for defensive carry. When you fire in self-defense, you start two parallel legal processes running. The first is the criminal process, which has the potential to put you in jail, and the second is in something called tort, which you'll hear referred to as the "civil" process. Tort seeks damages for a departure from what the "reasonable person" would do in a given situation.
Is the use of reloaded ammunition in defensive situations "illegal" ? At least in New Hamster, no. However, it can get you in a jam. First of all, if it's a perfect shooting, you'd probably be ok. I hope you're never involved in a shooting, but if you are, I hope it's perfect. I also hope you see and befriend a unicorn. A reaction on your part may be just a little too fast. You may have fired once too many times, and the like. Things aren't black and white, yes or no. Verdicts can be based on something like the death of a thousand cuts-none of them fatal, but taken together, make things look bad. Take that less than perfect reaction, which might be understood, and combine it with an element of antis on the jury, and, just for giggles, the image of a guy who spends time in his cold, dark basement making things with which to kill. Bad Salesmanship. It's why I keep all my carry stuff low-key. I don't go tactical anything. The firearm is unmodified. The factory load I carried was recommended by my local police chief, and as I acquire more, it's from the local hardware store and the box carries one of their stickers. I once represented a defendant in a defensive shooting. I think one of the things that helped us to a positive result was the fact he used his bird gun, and not something tricked out. In any event, image is definitely important at trial. While it may be true that no one suffered a conviction or judgement solely based on the use of handloaded ammunition, it would be difficult, without reading the entire transcript of every civil or criminal trial ever held, to say that it may not have contributed to a verdict.
As a practical matter, I think we all take rightful pride in our handloads. However, factories have real live engineers with sophisticated equipment to tell us, with some level of statistical certainty, just how the ammunition will function. Our handloads ? I don't have ballistic gelatin at my disposal, and even that has its limitations.
Those are the basics of why I make that recommendation to clients, and I follow my own advice. Do what you want, but I also advise you that if you are involved in a shooting, however justifiable, the first thing you need to do after stopping the threat, is carefully reach for your checkbook. Basically, be prepared, at least in my neck of the woods to write a check to your favorite law firm for something like a high-end Subaru, at least for the first go around. Don't make things harder for your lawyer. Makes the cost of the real, live carry ammo look pretty cheap. Yep, I practice with my handloads (based on published data to be close to factory) and when I rotate magazines, I fire the real thing so I don't forget where it hits, and how it functions.
So, do what you will, but this is what I tell the paying customers.
(This is based on my forty years at my day job, as a lawyer. I don't consider myself a trial specialist-I've always been a general practice guy in a semi rural setting. I did a stretch as the County Attorney in Belknap County back in the '80s. And, for those who are skeptical, my NH Bar # is 2328.) |
|
bob
Member
I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
|
Post by bob on May 18, 2019 23:20:33 GMT -5
I have just one question regarding this topic. What is the difference,in the courts' eyes, between hand loading for defense and practicing for defense? Either way we are readying ourselves to use potentially lethal force to protect ourselves and our families if that becomes our only choice.
|
|
poohzilla
Member
Give me a place to stand and a long-enough lever, and I will invariably break the lever.
Posts: 1,050
Location: New Hamster
|
Post by poohzilla on May 19, 2019 7:31:54 GMT -5
Bob, first it's not just courts-judges are human, juries subject to their passions, prosecutors are driven by some sort of quest for justice and political consideratioins. When I'm involved in the process, I look at it as trying to persuade them to do the right thing, give them a reason to do that, and make it easy for them to do that.
In answer to your question, I'd say it's a matter of degree. I think its a matter of passing off "target practice" (how often do you see people who know nothing about guns talk about that ?) from sitting there and meditating on expansion, shock, maximum damage and implementing all that with loving care. Both you and I know better-it's all the same continuum, the same craft.
That's as good as I can do this early on a Sunday morning. I'm going to go and peacefully fire some of those 452 323 bullets I cast a while back ! ;-)
|
|
gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on May 19, 2019 10:32:13 GMT -5
To all that I say, I've been reloading for pleasure, and defense for 45 years........I haven't gone out looking for trouble yet.....nor have I fired a shot in self defense or anger.......no not even self defense against a bear, let alone a person. Yet to a jury, I'm a bad guy looking for trouble, when some drugged perp tears down my door in the middle of the night? If a jury comes up with that....because I reload......well that's just stupid......and the lawyer who put them up to that is the one doing evil. Can't worry about that. or crossing the street because a car may come. Just be prepared for the unthinkable in case it happens....however remote. And thinking a factory engineer can make the safest bullets is warped logic IMO. Toy engineers are the only ones that do that....... Pro engineers make the powder, the cases, and the bullets....we just put them together according to specifications written in books written by those engineers. Why? Because the self defense loads are so expensive that everyday people can't afford to practice with them.....and non practiced people with a gun are dangerous to themselves as well as to other non-perps. So then you pull the trigger......factoryloaded or selfloaded.....they go bang, and can hurt someone.......lets blame the engineers for that....but not the perp who crashes into your home in the middle of the night, or who attacks you in a grocery store parking lot on the way to your car, near closing time. And what about the guy who turning a corner at Walmart, sees a man who had just plunged his knife into a woman, raise it up for a second plunge, and the guy drew his concealed carry and blew knifeman away. The woman survived. Hero, with a factory load? Evil man looking for trouble with a reload? Just how stupid is that.
Tort......the most misused rule of law there is. A reasonable man would pay the outrageous prices for self dense ammo when he has a reloading set up at home. An unreasonable man would buy a reloading setup.........yup that's reasonable.
Pooh, forgive me for being abrupt this morning, I'd be at church right now, but I'm home sick as a dog with a head/chest cold with bronchitis and I can barely breath)........ok, and a bit grumpy too.... Okay, tell me how much trouble I'm in. |
|
poohzilla
Member
Give me a place to stand and a long-enough lever, and I will invariably break the lever.
Posts: 1,050
Location: New Hamster
|
Post by poohzilla on May 19, 2019 10:51:56 GMT -5
Greg, sometimes grumpy makes for clarity. I'm not defending the state of the world by any means. and am only passing along what I've picked up from experience, same as if I saw you backing off a cliff, I'd try to point that out. Meanwhile, rest and fluids, amigo !
|
|
gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on May 19, 2019 11:00:43 GMT -5
Understand.....and you are one of the good guys......but tell me, have you seen someone go to jail, or lose a lawsuit, over handloads, who wouldn't have with factory loads?
|
|
poohzilla
Member
Give me a place to stand and a long-enough lever, and I will invariably break the lever.
Posts: 1,050
Location: New Hamster
|
Post by poohzilla on May 19, 2019 11:57:22 GMT -5
No. The closest I've seen was when I was County Attorney and there was an indictment pending in a shooting. One of the jurors asked what kind of bullet had been used, and the cop testifying indicated it was a Silvertip, and went into some detail about it being a hollowpoint. That particular juror's facial expression was not positive, although ultimately there was no indictment.
Just because I haven't seen it does not mean that it hasn't happened. (See notes above about transcripts.) I believe that there is enough exposure so I advise my clients accordingly, caution my friends, and avoid it myself.
Time to put flags on graves.
|
|
bob
Member
I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
|
Post by bob on May 19, 2019 13:15:44 GMT -5
Pooh and Greg, Thank you both for your thoughtful comments and in reality here where I live in California the results could go either way. Right now we have a Lady D.A. (I meant the L) who happens to have been a respected LEO and is married to a retired LEO both are relatively conservative,she defeated soros's candidate, and is far and away better than her ex boss. I don't have a CCW, this does not mean I'm with out protection though, especially at home.
Larry, thank you for starting this discussion and Greg, sorry about stealing your original thread.
|
|
gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on May 19, 2019 15:23:10 GMT -5
Bob, I didn't notice anything resembling theft. That was the purpose.....discussion. That's what we do as civilized folks. My mood today is temporary....my wife hopes. |
|
poohzilla
Member
Give me a place to stand and a long-enough lever, and I will invariably break the lever.
Posts: 1,050
Location: New Hamster
|
Post by poohzilla on May 20, 2019 8:01:45 GMT -5
The thread did sort of take a turn. Greg, thanks for listening and asking. Hope you're feeling better today !
|
|
gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on May 20, 2019 11:03:34 GMT -5
Another day in paradise.....
Went to work this morning.....body had other ideas.....back home....woke up this morning to rain....we never turn down rain here in NW New Mexico.....but now it's.........snowing hard.....on May 20 .....in the high desert of N.M.? Unreal.  At least the drought is officially over, not going to complain.....except about getting old.
Now we officially are off subject.....
|
|
bob
Member
I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
|
Post by bob on May 20, 2019 15:40:31 GMT -5
|
|
SnapShot
Member
Jeep & Mocha "Remembering Patches, always"
Posts: 699
Location: Finally free from the Republic of Kalifornia!
|
Post by SnapShot on May 21, 2019 11:29:41 GMT -5
WOW . . . I left town for just 2 days and look at all I missed on here.
Poo ~ Thanks for reconfirming my counsel’s advise.
As for how I came to carry Factory, Self Defense Ammunition and practice with my reloads I would offer the following. I pay my counsel well and keep him available in case I need him. His specialty is gun law, he carries AND he lives in the Socialist Republic of Kalifornia. I have counseled with him often in preparing my handgun training classes. I have also sought professional instructor training from some of the finest trainers available to me in multiple states. I take my training responsibility very seriously and provide my students with as much information as possible and let them make their decisions. I am careful to make it clear that I do not provide legal advise but only firearms instructions. I direct them to many sources of legal information and make it clear that they are responsible for their decisions.
My classes ALL stress safety in every aspects of firearms use and handling; to that point I stress practice, practice, practice. To your point, Bob; I don’t practice to kill anyone, I practice to safely handle a firearm and do what is necessary to stop a personal threat. The CCW classes cover how to best deal with personal threats and provide the best personal protection. My “Refuse To Be A Victim” classes basically provide much of the same advise with no mention of firearms at all. Questions that come up in most CCW classes deal with: how many time do you have to shoot a person and why don’t you just shoot them in the leg? I teach that your CCW allows you to stop a threat and provide your personal protection. Someone shot in the leg may very well be more of a deadly threat to you than before you shot them. Once you are in that situation, you do what is necessary to stop the threat. I guide people to review their personal being; do they have the physical training and ability, do they have the survival skills necessary, do they have the proper emotional and spiritual mindset? Then from the equipment side I guide them to select the best firearm and the best ammunition available to accomplish successful defensive tactics.
This has lead me to ask a couple of people to leave my class and has also lead me to suggest to a few people that they not carry a firearm. There are implied liabilities that instructors must be aware of too.
My morning prayer as I ready my carry gun is that I do not have to use it and that if I do have to use it I am right in that decision and accurate and that I harm no innocent people. Carrying a handgun is the greatest responsibility I manage in my daily life. I wish each of you the best in how you deal with these things in your life.
My apologies for getting so far off subject and my thanks to all for the great points to consider.
|
|
poohzilla
Member
Give me a place to stand and a long-enough lever, and I will invariably break the lever.
Posts: 1,050
Location: New Hamster
|
Post by poohzilla on May 25, 2019 7:39:32 GMT -5
Back to the subject...Midway has the Hydra Shoks on sale, and there is some kind of rebate, as well !  |
|
bob
Member
I'm too old to be nice but never too old to learn!
Posts: 1,457
Location: Northern California
|
Post by bob on May 25, 2019 10:28:48 GMT -5
Which subject? Oh, the bullets! Thanks Pooh.
|
|
gws
Member
Posts: 969
Location: NW New Mexico
|
Post by gws on May 26, 2019 21:13:03 GMT -5
What I'd really like to see for sale is Federals HST's the Hydrashock replacements. Those expand exceptional for any caliber. Hydrashoks and .45's not so well. The faster the round the better Hydrashoks work. .357's? Awesome.
What it amounts to is a Federal policy of finding a use for old technology and tooling.....us reloaders.
I like Gold Dots for .45's....or HSTs.
Feeling better this weekend ..... just the cough left ....... I hate coughs.
|
|
But I hear you.....I'm as cheap as anyone.
At least the drought is officially over, not going to complain.....except about getting old.
My daughter came from Missouri, my son and grand son, my wife and I had a nice dinner of grilled "porter house" pork chops, corn on the cobb, my son, G'son and I share 10/5. G'son is 4 minutes early though @ 10/4.
Pooh I hope you find to right house . 
